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re: OT- Lake Oconee Murders
Posted on 2/28/18 at 12:26 pm to deeprig9
Posted on 2/28/18 at 12:26 pm to deeprig9
I believe the lot was undeveloped plus these are acre plus lots so there is a decent amount of green space between homes. The killer wouldn't care about the neighbor or housekeeper because I believe that house is on the point looking out so there isn't a clear line of sight to the boat house, plus the houses are elevated from the water front which impedes line of sight. A boat going into and out of the mooring is going to arouse more suspicion than one parked at let at the dock.
now to the second part of your reply. If I was the one completing this act I would have to case the place or have very good intel on homeowners habits. Being that they were in their 80's that wouldn't take to long to figure out what they are doing on a daily basis. I would then slip into the dock at night and assuming this happened before wifi home security systems were big then figure out a way to disable the alarm and move into the house to still maintain the element of surprise. The only issue with this ( and I do not know if this house had this), but many of the houses alarm systems were tied to the guard shacks and could dispatch security in the event of the alarm going off, but if you disable the alarm system then the point would be moot).
Without the why this crime occurred I have a hard time formulating what would lead me to decapitate someone. If I was fishing for information then I would be likely to torture someone, but neither of the bodies showed signs of torture. The smashed finger tip of the headless corpse was ruled out as torture because the man suffered the injury during WWII according to the article. So if this is just a professional hit, and I am bringing back the head as proof of death then the garage is the best place to do this in the event I need to clean things up.
I would not have dumped the wife in the area she was dumped in because it is one of the most well fished spots on the lake due to the standing timber. there are enough areas along that side of the lake that are inaccessible by road that I would have just dumped the body there. I do believe that pros would know that 40 loads of weights arent going to be enough to keep a body submerged for any length of time one the H2S and other gasses start to build up. So I would have either gotten spooked and gotten the hell out of the area and just dumped the body on the way back to the launch point, but I would have to bring cinder blocks and rope because it is likely that at the age of the couple and the area they live in, there would be no supplies like that to use in a quick getaway.
So now I am planning on killing the husband and wife being that I would have brought the items, plus cinder blocks in a boat are easy to explain in the event I get pulled over by dnr as anchors for the boat as well as the rope for mooring lines or anchor lines.
TLDR: come in at night surprise the couple, do the deed because I am not looking for information or valuables. Take the head as proof of death and dump the wife to maybe buy sometime with police looking for her and to put distance between me and Eatonton, GA, but I would have picked a better dumping spot of the wife.
ETA: I was in Texas for work at the time of this killing so if the FBI are watching, I have a tight alibi and expense reports to prove my whereabouts.
now to the second part of your reply. If I was the one completing this act I would have to case the place or have very good intel on homeowners habits. Being that they were in their 80's that wouldn't take to long to figure out what they are doing on a daily basis. I would then slip into the dock at night and assuming this happened before wifi home security systems were big then figure out a way to disable the alarm and move into the house to still maintain the element of surprise. The only issue with this ( and I do not know if this house had this), but many of the houses alarm systems were tied to the guard shacks and could dispatch security in the event of the alarm going off, but if you disable the alarm system then the point would be moot).
Without the why this crime occurred I have a hard time formulating what would lead me to decapitate someone. If I was fishing for information then I would be likely to torture someone, but neither of the bodies showed signs of torture. The smashed finger tip of the headless corpse was ruled out as torture because the man suffered the injury during WWII according to the article. So if this is just a professional hit, and I am bringing back the head as proof of death then the garage is the best place to do this in the event I need to clean things up.
I would not have dumped the wife in the area she was dumped in because it is one of the most well fished spots on the lake due to the standing timber. there are enough areas along that side of the lake that are inaccessible by road that I would have just dumped the body there. I do believe that pros would know that 40 loads of weights arent going to be enough to keep a body submerged for any length of time one the H2S and other gasses start to build up. So I would have either gotten spooked and gotten the hell out of the area and just dumped the body on the way back to the launch point, but I would have to bring cinder blocks and rope because it is likely that at the age of the couple and the area they live in, there would be no supplies like that to use in a quick getaway.
So now I am planning on killing the husband and wife being that I would have brought the items, plus cinder blocks in a boat are easy to explain in the event I get pulled over by dnr as anchors for the boat as well as the rope for mooring lines or anchor lines.
TLDR: come in at night surprise the couple, do the deed because I am not looking for information or valuables. Take the head as proof of death and dump the wife to maybe buy sometime with police looking for her and to put distance between me and Eatonton, GA, but I would have picked a better dumping spot of the wife.
ETA: I was in Texas for work at the time of this killing so if the FBI are watching, I have a tight alibi and expense reports to prove my whereabouts.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 12:32 pm
1
Posted on 2/28/18 at 12:37 pm to deeprig9
quote:
Because you wouldn’t sink the body in daylight, and you wouldn’t want your boat parked there all day, Im starting to think the boat driver dropped off the killer, probably pre-dawn Saturday, then drove away. They probably stayed in contact via cell phone or cb radio until night when the boat came back.
Definitely in agreement with you here. I believe though it was a three man team. One to drive. Two on the hit.
Don't think anything pinged the cell tower that provided them evidence. Had to be CB.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 12:46 pm to DaveyDownerDawg
quote:
Had to be CB.
you would have to know that your conversation wasn't getting picked up by truckers driving I20 and 441 which are in the range of CB radios. You would probably have to use something with a closed band (not sure of the technical term) to avoid being busted unintentionally. I think the killers (two) stayed in the house for the duration until they left. At night on the water gives you the best chance to get out because the nav and pilot lights will let you know if anything is coming. If this is a pro hit, they are going to keep the least amount of people involved and pros don't work with people they don't trust so I believe a local guide is out of the question
Posted on 2/28/18 at 12:52 pm to Perrydawg
Plus the conversation could have been coded and on the off chance someone was listening they'd have no idea what was being referenced. Plus they probably maintain radio silence until it's time to extract. I highly doubt the killers would be giving the play by play over the radio. But it definitely would explain why the cell tower gave no evidence.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:05 pm to DaveyDownerDawg
quote:
Plus the conversation could have been coded and on the off chance someone was listening they'd have no idea what was being referenced. Plus they probably maintain radio silence until it's time to extract. I highly doubt the killers would be giving the play by play over the radio. But it definitely would explain why the cell tower gave no evidence.
Exactly.
The talker wouldn't say "Hey Larry, I'm ready for you to come pick me up. I've got one dead body ready to go with some cinder blocks, bring some cigarettes too please."
The talker would say "Ghostrider, ready for pickup. Bring some Camel Lights"
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:05 pm to DaveyDownerDawg
Another thing people talk about a boat riding through raising suspicion. If it was a boat with an outboard perhaps they cut the engine and lights off in the distance and paddled their way in or used an electric trolling motor which is pretty quiet? I've stayed at peoples boat houses and honestly, boats riding through at all hours of the day and night seem common at least where I was which was Lake Jackson and Lake Wedowee. I'd chalk it up to night fishing and not blink an eye about it.
Perhaps the killers dressed as fishermen with rods, reels, the whole get up in case DNR stopped them. Like was said earlier, the rope and cinder blocks are easily explained from that angle. You could stash the handguns/silencers/knifes/duct tape,etc. in the tackle box which would never be checked. Just make sure you have your ID/fishing license, flotation devices and boat registration. If on the off chance you get stopped on the way in you abort the hit because you've technically been made.
Anyway to check fishing licenses sold within a few days of the murder to see if anything came up? Might be a long shot but perhaps somebody from New Jersey that definitely isn't a good old boy that would normally be coming to fish in Ga would pop up. Licenses have been sold electronically for a while now so some record should exist.
Perhaps the killers dressed as fishermen with rods, reels, the whole get up in case DNR stopped them. Like was said earlier, the rope and cinder blocks are easily explained from that angle. You could stash the handguns/silencers/knifes/duct tape,etc. in the tackle box which would never be checked. Just make sure you have your ID/fishing license, flotation devices and boat registration. If on the off chance you get stopped on the way in you abort the hit because you've technically been made.
Anyway to check fishing licenses sold within a few days of the murder to see if anything came up? Might be a long shot but perhaps somebody from New Jersey that definitely isn't a good old boy that would normally be coming to fish in Ga would pop up. Licenses have been sold electronically for a while now so some record should exist.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 1:54 pm to DaveyDownerDawg
DNR is not really visible on Lake Oconee or Sinclair for that matter unless it is a holiday weekend. DNR would typically put their boat in at our Marina in Reynolds Landing to start their patrols and we rarely ever saw them and I was on the water daily for three years. Now come a holiday weekend, they would be out in full force, so I think the fishing license lookup would be moot, but if the hitmen were from GA and bought a fishing license, then if would not raise suspicion. I think I would focus on stolen boats and boat rentals in the area because it is unlikely a hitman from Jersey or Georgia are going to go through the trouble of hauling a boat around which one raises your visibility and two you blow a tire on the side of the road now more then likely a police office will stop and check on you, and boom now you could be on the radar. Unless someone that lived in the area and had access to their own boat and allowed the killers to use it, but that would be taking a shite ton of risk of being an accomplice
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:34 pm to Perrydawg
quote:
fishing license lookup would be moot
Are you talking about guys that got stopped and checked that weekend on the lake by DNR or just the fishing license data base of all licenses sold around that time period? I was talking about running through the data base within say 1 week prior to the crime be ran through just to see if there are any anomalies. Cross check names with criminal data base to see if you get any hits and go from there.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:31 pm to DaveyDownerDawg
It would have been pretty ballsy to approach the house from the water with 2 neighbors looking that direction and multiple docks. However, if you look near the house there is a huge patch of forest there. I'd bet they came that way.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 5:18 pm to Perrydawg
To remove the benefit of hindsight, I'm going to try and wipe all knowledge of this case out of my mind and think about how I would go about killing these people.
1: I wouldn't use a boat at all. I have been a boater since childhood. Introducing a boat to any plan or situation only increases the clusterfrick by a factor of 6.
2: I would case the place for a while. But knowing people have cameras I would have to be mindful of how I did it. I would use my computer to search for homes for sale in the area, particularly the neighborhood. Whenever I would do a drive by, I would drive around all of the streets in the subdivision, not just the one I was casing. That would give me plausible deniability. My computer would show I was interested in buying in the area, and did many drive throughs around much of the area. Nothing suspicious about that.
3: I would buy a brand new gun from Walmart. A 9mm. I would also procure a dirty gun from classifieds that I would search from a computer that is not my own and arrange on a phone or through email that is also not mine. I don't know, a library maybe? I would use the dirty gun for the murders, throw it in the lake. If cops ever came and checked my recently purchased registered gun, the ballistics would clear me. As long as they never found the dirty gun, I'd be safe.
4: Early morning pre-dawn is the best time. The most people are sleeping, too late for night owls and too early for the early birds. Around 4:30am.
5: I can't just drive up with my car. My car has electronics in it. I would have to use an older car that didn't have any of that shite in it. I have some struggling in-laws that could use an older vehicle. I would offer them a free car, I would pay for it and have it registered in their name, then insist on borrowing it for a few weeks before giving it to them. Before I pulled into the subdivision, I would stop and remove the plate. I would not stop for gas or anything within weeks of the crime. It would already be gassed up and hidden in my garage for a while before the crime was ever committed. I would pull into the driveway, don my rubber gloves and hairnet, ski mask, leave the car running, bust in, pop both of them in the head, run as fast as I could back to the car and haul arse. Lights out until I was out of the neighborhood. Most surveillance cameras only record motion. If you don't have your lights on, the cameras aren't necessarily going to catch you. Put plates back on. Throw gun off nearby bridge. Drive home. Obviously no cell phone with me. The cell would stay home, where I am supposedly sleeping like most people at 4:30 in the morning.
6: Keep murder vehicle in garage for while, watch media to see if the vehicle was captured on any video, if there's an APB out on the description. If clear, give vehicle back to in-laws. If vehicle is not clear, need to have a contingency plan to burn it. Totally different plan worthy of its own thread.
7: Continue shopping for houses in the area for a few more months, and even make a few low ball offers on some houses to show I'm serious.
No accomplices. No boats. The car thing is a little complicated, and the dirty gun is also complicated, but still not as much of a pain in the arse as fricking with boats and chopping people up.
ETA- I would try to disguise the vehicle in some way, maybe some bogus business magnets or weird magnet designs that I could yank off quickly when I dump the gun, dump those too. So cops would be looking for vehicle with weird designs on it, when it's really just a plain vehicle.
1: I wouldn't use a boat at all. I have been a boater since childhood. Introducing a boat to any plan or situation only increases the clusterfrick by a factor of 6.
2: I would case the place for a while. But knowing people have cameras I would have to be mindful of how I did it. I would use my computer to search for homes for sale in the area, particularly the neighborhood. Whenever I would do a drive by, I would drive around all of the streets in the subdivision, not just the one I was casing. That would give me plausible deniability. My computer would show I was interested in buying in the area, and did many drive throughs around much of the area. Nothing suspicious about that.
3: I would buy a brand new gun from Walmart. A 9mm. I would also procure a dirty gun from classifieds that I would search from a computer that is not my own and arrange on a phone or through email that is also not mine. I don't know, a library maybe? I would use the dirty gun for the murders, throw it in the lake. If cops ever came and checked my recently purchased registered gun, the ballistics would clear me. As long as they never found the dirty gun, I'd be safe.
4: Early morning pre-dawn is the best time. The most people are sleeping, too late for night owls and too early for the early birds. Around 4:30am.
5: I can't just drive up with my car. My car has electronics in it. I would have to use an older car that didn't have any of that shite in it. I have some struggling in-laws that could use an older vehicle. I would offer them a free car, I would pay for it and have it registered in their name, then insist on borrowing it for a few weeks before giving it to them. Before I pulled into the subdivision, I would stop and remove the plate. I would not stop for gas or anything within weeks of the crime. It would already be gassed up and hidden in my garage for a while before the crime was ever committed. I would pull into the driveway, don my rubber gloves and hairnet, ski mask, leave the car running, bust in, pop both of them in the head, run as fast as I could back to the car and haul arse. Lights out until I was out of the neighborhood. Most surveillance cameras only record motion. If you don't have your lights on, the cameras aren't necessarily going to catch you. Put plates back on. Throw gun off nearby bridge. Drive home. Obviously no cell phone with me. The cell would stay home, where I am supposedly sleeping like most people at 4:30 in the morning.
6: Keep murder vehicle in garage for while, watch media to see if the vehicle was captured on any video, if there's an APB out on the description. If clear, give vehicle back to in-laws. If vehicle is not clear, need to have a contingency plan to burn it. Totally different plan worthy of its own thread.
7: Continue shopping for houses in the area for a few more months, and even make a few low ball offers on some houses to show I'm serious.
No accomplices. No boats. The car thing is a little complicated, and the dirty gun is also complicated, but still not as much of a pain in the arse as fricking with boats and chopping people up.
ETA- I would try to disguise the vehicle in some way, maybe some bogus business magnets or weird magnet designs that I could yank off quickly when I dump the gun, dump those too. So cops would be looking for vehicle with weird designs on it, when it's really just a plain vehicle.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 5:33 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 5:46 pm to deeprig9
What if this crime was just two old people shot in their bed, with no leads and no physical evidence at the crime scene? It would just be another confusing unsolved murder.
The fact there was a boat, sinking a body, probably accomplices, a severed head, no motive, it is a high profile crime.
Did these killers want it to be a high-profile crime?
Did these killers not want it to be high-profile, but fricked up and changed their plans mid-operation and luck out into not getting caught, and through pure frickup left a confusing high-profile crime scene?
The fact there was a boat, sinking a body, probably accomplices, a severed head, no motive, it is a high profile crime.
Did these killers want it to be a high-profile crime?
Did these killers not want it to be high-profile, but fricked up and changed their plans mid-operation and luck out into not getting caught, and through pure frickup left a confusing high-profile crime scene?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 5:51 pm to deeprig9
Problem is, you wouldn’t be able to just drive around looking at houses in Reynolds Plantation unless you make an appointment with the real estate office which gets you on the radar. You cannot just drive through and look around as these are high end gated communities that at the time were not open to the public. That could have changed since they sold out to MetLife because they banked in real estate and then 2008 happened. Also if you were a visitor, the person you are visiting would have to put you on the list. So unless you knew the person or someone inside the community (employee or resident) they would have a record of you being onsite. The water is the only way you could get in easily and without detection. Sneaking through the woods would get you on camera as well as there isn’t a direct path without the view of some surveillance system
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:00 pm to deeprig9
While not a popular choice the quietest 4 stroke OB I’ve ever owned was a Honda. You had to listen closely to hear it run and all you could hear was the valves ticking
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:05 pm to deeprig9
Heres where you need to change the plan. The vehicle is going to mess you up. Buy a $500 POS off Craigslist but get the BS Fulton county plates like the Mexicans do. I’ve only ever worked with Mexicans is the way I know about this but there’s a place off Tara boulevard that does all that fake stuff for them.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:19 pm to Griffindawg
quote:
Heres where you need to change the plan. The vehicle is going to mess you up. Buy a $500 POS off Craigslist but get the BS Fulton county plates like the Mexicans do. I’ve only ever worked with Mexicans is the way I know about this but there’s a place off Tara boulevard that does all that fake stuff for them.
I don't want to get too off topic, but if the vehicle gets traced to me, then I'm fricked either way. If the vehicle gets traced back to the Tara place, and the FBI shows up, they are going to turn me over like burning hamburger anyway.
ETA- legit having my inlaws buy a 2010 camry from a dothead lot in Snellville, with cash that I give them, then keep it for a month in my garage hidden, and dress it up with all kinds of magnets and shite before the crime, dispose of the disguise after the crime and re-adhere the tag, give to inlaws, I don't see any way it could be traced back. It's not like a camera is going to catch the VIN. And the owners of the vehicle are 80miles away with an alibi. The car doesn't have any tracking shite in it.
ETA again... maybe even make a car-prosthetic to make the car look damaged in a couple of ways, that I could easily peel off and dispose, so cops would be looking for a vehicle with a fricked up fender etc.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:47 pm to deeprig9
The tags from the Mexican place would not be traceable. And they would never know your name. Likely would not cooperate with the fbi because they’re an illegal operation themselves.
Best way to disguise the car would be to vinyl wrap it a different color and then peel it off after the crime. Obtaining the vinyl kit anonymously would be a bit difficult but could be done.
Best way to disguise the car would be to vinyl wrap it a different color and then peel it off after the crime. Obtaining the vinyl kit anonymously would be a bit difficult but could be done.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:24 am to Perrydawg
quote:
Sneaking through the woods would get you on camera as well as there isn’t a direct path without the view of some surveillance system
Maybe, but coming over water you risk being seen by anyone from anywhere really...nowhere to hide. Boats on water are impossible to miss.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:31 am to Sandwich
someone is less likely to remember people in a boat vs sneaking around multi million dollar homes on surveillance cameras. It is a lake so boats aren't going to draw that much attention not like they are riding across the lake on the Loch Ness Monster
ETA: I am starting to believe this couple had dirt on the Clintons
ETA: I am starting to believe this couple had dirt on the Clintons
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 10:02 am
Posted on 3/1/18 at 1:31 pm to Perrydawg
quote:
surveillance cameras
Did they have any? You'd think with how nice the area is, they'd have tons of security including cameras.
Posted on 3/1/18 at 2:56 pm to Sandwich
I would assume that they would, but I am sure someone with the means to get out and not get caught with this murder would be capable of disabling it.
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