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re: If Fields had stayed
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:16 pm to Crowknowsbest
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:16 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:I agree, and my argument is that our offense as a whole has contributed to that. That's the nature of this debate: whether or not Fromm alone is to blame or whether or not our failures on offense are a team issue.
Not so much this year, especially the last few games.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That's the nature of this debate: whether or not Fromm alone is to blame or whether or not our failures on offense are a team issue.
No wonder you are confused because I don’t think anyone is saying this.
This post was edited on 11/26/19 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:20 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:I agree with you, but he has had to play in two games (both this season) where it was even an issue out of 3 seasons. He needs to get better if he wants to play in the NFL, but you have to admit that there is typically a drop off in passing production even in the NFL when conditions are bad. Tom Brady was a hair off on several throws that he makes with his eyes closed this past Sunday, playing in that bad weather. It makes a difference, and the difference is more noticeable for QBs that haven't experienced it much. It's not something we should write off as a non-factor when talking about a QBs performance for a season.
He needs to figure that shite out if he wants to play professionally. A high percentage of pro games are played in bad northeastern and midwestern weather.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:22 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I agree, and my argument is that our offense as a whole has contributed to that. That's the nature of this debate: whether or not Fromm alone is to blame or whether or not our failures on offense are a team issue.
No one alone blames Fromm. Coley and Kirby's philosophy are a large part of the problem. However, outside of the Auburn game Fromm's deep passes have been flat out dreadful. No one fears him, which is why running the ball is difficult this year. Teams stack the box and Fromm cannot beat them.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:24 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
If our offense was more productive, we wouldn't need to rely on 3 plays out of an entire game.
This is bullshite. Every modern offense relies on explosive plays to some extent. The guys that hit them are the guys that win titles and progress to the next level.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:24 pm to HTDawg
quote:Thank you for your candor. These three sentences confirmed a lot that I had suspected about you, and frankly it confirms my thoughts on the TDS (or FDS) that I think you've been experiencing.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Donald Trump is a loathsome scum without a single redeeming quality. There are a million reasons to despise that bastard.
quote:*Sigh* this is the critical thinking issue I was referring to. The comparison isn't about Trump vs. Fromm, but the irrational responses people have to both.
Jake Fromm on the other hand is a great young man and leader with a terrific work ethic. He's just not nearly as good as many of his fans want people to think and that doesn't make him immune from criticism. He's also not a politician or the president, so the comparison doesn't hold.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:26 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
That's the nature of this debate: whether or not Fromm alone is to blame or whether or not our failures on offense are a team issue.
This is not the nature of this debate.
It is obviously a team issue. Jake Fromm is a part of that team and is responsible for a portion of the issues. Calling that out is not inappropriate.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:27 pm to HTDawg
quote:You're right, and the throw to Herrien was completely uncharacteristic for Fromm because it was a fairly short throw. That's why I've been adamant to blame the weather. Even so, and like I said, I'll concede that for now and blame Fromm entirely for those throws.
You act like this is the only time he has stunk the joint up. The simple fact is if he had made the two throws for the TDs in the first quarter, this game would have been a blowout and would not have come down to the fourth quarter as it did.
You're still missing my point. Two throws early in the game shouldn't define our offense. We've got bigger problems than that if we have to rely on those two throws to determine the whole game. We still had too many short drives and the defense still stayed on the field too long.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:29 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What I'm getting at, and as I said in a response just a minute ago, is that our offense isn't built on 50-yard bombs. We are a grinding football team that occasionally sets up a PA pass for a big gain.
That’s because we aren’t hitting those PA passes with any consistency. That is not all 11’s fault, but he’s as responsible as anyone else involved.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:29 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
We've got bigger problems than that if we have to rely on those two throws to determine the whole game.
High level games usually come down to a few plays here or there.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:31 pm to djsdawg
quote:From my viewpoint, it's the entire nature. This thread is titled "If Fields had stayed". It's a question about if Fields would start over Fromm, which is an indirect criticism of Fromm based on the context of our offensive performance this season.
No wonder you are confused because I don’t think anyone is saying this.
The discussions as of late have been highly critical of Fromm, singling him out as the weak link in our offense. Some have gone further and blamed Coley, but the debate has boiled down to where the problems like, and some like yourself have been quick to say Fromm is the problem, that he's a mediocre QB, and that he's regressed a lot this season. Others like myself have been trying to state that our offense has greater problems than Fromm, and that a lot of Fromm's struggles appear to be directly related to his supporting cast or other factors outside his control.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
He's missed on some of those and he's hit some of those. What I'm getting at, and as I said in a response just a minute ago, is that our offense isn't built on 50-yard bombs. We are a grinding football team that occasionally sets up a PA pass for a big gain. We shouldn't be relying on a couple of errant throws a game. It's not like we put up 40 points a game with a couple of bad throws. We struggle to move the ball. Period. That's a much bigger concern to me than missing some 40-yard throws by a few inches, as disappointing as they are.
When a td is open, it needs to be hit more often than not, especially in our offense. That’s what a good passer is expected to do in any offense, and it has a major impact either way.
These opportunities are few and far between, but when he is consistently missing on them, it isn’t an outlier. Fromm is missing these throws on short, medium, and long throws. Very few, if any, of his misses have been on very low % passes. That’s not gonna be good enough to beat LSU, as we saw in 2018, and this LSU is much better.
When he misses, especially early, it enables to defense to maintain their “stuff the run” game plan, which contributes to the struggles of our run game. It probably doesn’t help his confidence passing either.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:35 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
While we do throw occasionally on 1st and 2nd downs, our bread and butter has been run-run-pass.
Good God.We threw NINE times on 1st down vs A&M! We also threw slants,screens,wheel routes,fly pattern etc.Point is,Foley put him in numerous situations to succeed and he didn't.Hell,I thought we were throwing way too much on 1st down because we just weren't successful. Run,run,pass was our pattern on about 30% of our drives.
quote:We're averaging 5.2 ypc.
but unless we're getting 5 yards a carry running the ball, it doesn't mean much; we're still going to struggle.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:36 pm to Buzz Killington
quote:Teams stack the box every season against us, especially when we had Chubb and Michel. The issue is how we respond throwing the ball to soften up that box, and we haven't been successful. Part of that is on Fromm, obviously, but another big part as I see it is our inability to get leverage and make the contested catches. Some deep throws had receivers not going full speed the whole route. Some had receivers not getting the leverage to make the ball easier to catch on the back shoulder. Some were just well defended.
No one alone blames Fromm. Coley and Kirby's philosophy are a large part of the problem. However, outside of the Auburn game Fromm's deep passes have been flat out dreadful. No one fears him, which is why running the ball is difficult this year. Teams stack the box and Fromm cannot beat them.
It seems everyone here is just focusing on the few low-percentage throws that have been missed and ignoring the vast majority of the rest of our passing game, which has been short-to-medium passes with little separation and inconsistent technique to make the catches needed to move the chains. As I have said several times now, we shouldn't be relying on perfect throws from 50 yards away to define our success on offense.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:37 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:"To some extent". This is my point. We have to rely almost entirely on them because we have struggled moving the ball consistently.
This is bull shite. Every modern offense relies on explosive plays to some extent. The guys that hit them are the guys that win titles and progress to the next level.
And we do hit many of those explosive plays, but we don't hit enough of them to make up for our lackluster offense on the non-explosive plays.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:37 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Complain about the plays with a wet ball on Saturday all you like, but it's short-sighted and not indicative of his play all season, nor does it address the overall offensive problems we've had. That's what I'm trying to address: the foaming at the mouth to throw Fromm under the bus without a desire to look at the root causes for why our offense is performing as it is. It's emotive rather than rational.
That's not my issue. The missed throws are concerning, but I have confidence Fromm will start making them.
My problem is the mental aspect of the position, and that's been my problem all season - not just in the past couple of games. If Fromm has enormous freedom to change plays pre-snap, why are we in so many bad plays vs stacked boxes and blitzes? I've posted videos of many plays where it's obvious that Fromm wasn't going through progressions, being impatient, and/or flat out ignoring wide open receivers in favor of making the more familiar throw to the sideline even when that option is double covered. He's often seemed to rush when blitzed, making the wrong throw off his back foot even when the blitz had been picked up and he still had time to find the open guy.
I do blame coaching for plenty of this, but Coley has improved significantly over the season when it comes to in-game decisions. Also, even with the mistakes Fromm did a better job of going through progressions and standing tall against the pass-rush v A&M than he did v Auburn.
Right now the frustrations have reached a head, and those who have been excusing the bad play are catching some pushback. These heated disagreements are entirely expected, but the fact is this offense is closer to putting it all together than it has been all season.
Hopefully, things click and it's all rainbows and lollipops again shortly. I feel good about the chances.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:39 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:Calling out Fromm as a contributor is one thing, but that hasn't been the tone of this board lately. There has been a purposeful focus on Fromm as a key reason why our offense has been poor and the call-outs have been on a few low-percentage throws and some bad balls thrown in terrible weather conditions. There isn't a "fair and balanced" review of the offense around here. It's been "Fromm sucks and should move on" from a lot of people here.
This is not the nature of this debate.
It is obviously a team issue. Jake Fromm is a part of that team and is responsible for a portion of the issues. Calling that out is not inappropriate.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:41 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:He does share in the responsibility, but that hasn't been the tone here, like I've said. The immediate reaction is that Fromm has regressed.
That’s because we aren’t hitting those PA passes with any consistency. That is not all 11’s fault, but he’s as responsible as anyone else involved.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:41 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:That's very true, but the complaint has been that we haven't even been playing at a high level. That goes well beyond a couple of throws early in a game.
High level games usually come down to a few plays here or there.
Posted on 11/26/19 at 12:44 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The immediate reaction is that Fromm has regressed.
That reaction has not been immediate. UGA has played 11 games.
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