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Harrick Scandal in hindsight
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:09 am
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:09 am
Given the recent news with UNC ( LINK), I am now left thinking back to the Harrick situation and how badly it was mishandled.
Because it's been so long, does anyone remember all of the specifics on the situation? Specifically, on the academic side. I found the R&B and ESPN articles referring to the final exam that was a joke, but came across a couple of lines that stood out:
This would seem to be a single class with a very similar scenario, not exclusively student athletes, and if the second quoted portion is true, no extra benefit was technically provided to the student athletes.
Am I missing something, or is the NCAA directly contradicting themselves with the UNC ruling here?
Because it's been so long, does anyone remember all of the specifics on the situation? Specifically, on the academic side. I found the R&B and ESPN articles referring to the final exam that was a joke, but came across a couple of lines that stood out:
quote:
The NCAA concluded Harrick Jr. "fraudulently awarded grades of
A to three men's basketball student-athletes" enrolled in the
course he taught in 2001, allowing them to miss class and tests.
Harrick Jr. also allegedly provided an extra benefit to student
athletes by the manner in which he conducted the course, the NCAA
found.
quote:
All the students in the class were given an A grade, according
to the documents.
This would seem to be a single class with a very similar scenario, not exclusively student athletes, and if the second quoted portion is true, no extra benefit was technically provided to the student athletes.
Am I missing something, or is the NCAA directly contradicting themselves with the UNC ruling here?
2
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:22 am to fibonaccisquared
Basically UGA was stupid and should have just fought it every step of the way like UNC so that it would just get washed over and nothing would happen. Same thing with AJ and Gurley.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:39 am to fibonaccisquared
THe difference is basically that the basketball program itself was responsible for and knew about the fake class that Harrick Jr. (an assistant coach) ran.
In UNCs case, thins was an academic scandal that apparently the basketball program had no part in, or at least nothing the NCAA found.
In UNCs case, thins was an academic scandal that apparently the basketball program had no part in, or at least nothing the NCAA found.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:50 am to rockchlkjayhku11
quote:
THe difference is basically that the basketball program itself was responsible for and knew about the fake class that Harrick Jr. (an assistant coach) ran.
But the class was available for other students to take clearly. Based on the comments from the NCAA, the reason they are unable to penalize UNC has nothing to do with athletic program involvement, but rather that the benefit was not something that was exclusive to the student athletes.
So long as the university determines that it's not improper academic benefits, apparently the NCAA is incapable of passing judgement on it...
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:51 am to Porter Osborne Jr
quote:
Basically UGA was stupid and should have just fought it every step of the way like UNC so that it would just get washed over and nothing would happen.
From an athletic perspective, it was stupid.
UNC has taken a reputation hit that UGA avoided with their handling of the scandal.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:56 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:
UGA avoided with their handling of the scandal
I would disagree. Timing makes it seem so, and we're in a different media age at this point than 2003-ish. UNC has definitely taken a bit of a PR hit, but UGA was getting the same dings. UNC continues to rate highly in the top universities rankings, and this scandal will not do anything to dramatically impact that. This investigation has been going on for over 3 years now...
quote:
From an athletic perspective, it was stupid.
Definitely... I just think it was stupid overall. You were taking the PR hit either way... admission of guilt didn't offer up any benefit that I can see.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 11:58 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:
UGA avoided with their handling of the scandal.
I don't know we were hammered by the National media across the country including the tonight show.
I suppose ours went away much quicker but I think we took a much louder hit.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:00 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
I would disagree. Timing makes it seem so, and we're in a different media age at this point than 2003-ish. UNC has definitely taken a bit of a PR hit, but UGA was getting the same dings. UNC continues to rate highly in the top universities rankings, and this scandal will not do anything to dramatically impact that. This investigation has been going on for over 3 years now...
Their accreditation board put them on probation, for one thing. That's hugely embarrassing for a school like UNC.
Maybe it's just because I know a lot of UNC people and watch them get shite on by UVA, W&L, etc. folks, but I think they've taken a bigger hit than you think.
It won't hurt their in-state applicant pool, but I would hesitate to go there if I was a serious out-of-state student with other elite options.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:02 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
UNC has taken a reputation hit that UGA avoided with their handling of the scandal.
I would say the opposite. Uga was a national joke. Unc has avoided that.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:03 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
I don't know we were hammered by the National media across the country including the tonight show.
I suppose ours went away much quicker but I think we took a much louder hit.
UGA's was more amusing, in a way. No one cares now.
Within the academic community, the UGA hoops thing isn't comparable to the level of impropriety that occurred at UNC. In my eyes at least, they went from an elite public school to just another athletic factory.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:04 pm to djsdawg
quote:
Unc has avoided that.
People don't joke about UNC because it's a much more serious case, imo.
Having tests asking how many points a three pointer is worth makes for easy jokes. UNC didn't have that, but it's a much more significant case of academic fraud.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:08 pm to fibonaccisquared
So it's OK to offer crib courses that are available to all students that student athletes can flock to. 
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:12 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
Their accreditation board put them on probation, for one thing. That's hugely embarrassing for a school like UNC.
Yes and no. *Losing* accreditation would be hugely problematic for them, but the process to actually lose it is something that a school like UNC would never allow. Auburn was placed on probation with SACS back in 2001 I think... most people probably had little to no clue. My buddy was there working on his degree at the time and I'm pretty confident he was only barely aware.
It's certainly possible that it impacts their OOS applicant pool, but looking at their incoming freshman profile compared over the last several years, I'd say the impact appears to be negligible if any at all: LINK /
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:14 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
People don't joke about UNC because it's a much more serious case, imo.
Having tests asking how many points a three pointer is worth makes for easy jokes. UNC didn't have that, but it's a much more significant case of academic fraud.
This really points at the opposite of what you're implying though. Nothing about *how* UGA handled the situation did anything to meaningfully impact the results. It was comical/humorous, and the easy target of a joke, but at the end of the day, it was going to get forgotten pretty quickly because it wasn't pervasive as in the case of UNC.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:15 pm to GurleyGirl
quote:
So it's OK to offer crib courses that are available to all students that student athletes can flock to.
I mean, according to the NCAA, the answer appears to be yes.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:22 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
Nothing about *how* UGA handled the situation did anything to meaningfully impact the results. It was comical/humorous, and the easy target of a joke, but at the end of the day, it was going to get forgotten pretty quickly because it wasn't pervasive as in the case of UNC.
If UGA had attempted to fight the charges, the jokes still would have happened, and people would have more ammo to say that UGA cared more about athletic success than academic achievement. That's a reputation SEC schools have been fighting for a long time. At that time, an student athlete academic scandal wouldn't change your average person's opinion on UGA as a school. Locally it might, but not nationally. The jokes were told, UGA took its medicine, and everyone moved on.
There previously wasn't any such ammo against UNC. There is now. They fought the case on the basis that their school lacked integrity to an extent that permeated the entire institution. Most people who are more serious about school than sports will judge them for that, I would think. It will be a black mark on their reputation for a long time.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:31 pm to Crowknowsbest
I get what you're saying, but they've couched all of their remarks as not being against institutional policies *at the time*... Guess what policies will be getting a refresh so they can say that it is all in the past and behind them.
I don't disagree that a small segment of the population will look at it as a black mark, but I do think that:
a) it's a smaller portion of the population than you think - perception at large is more important than perception in limited groups. If a UNC degree is still seen in the general public as a coveted thing, then they likely see little impact in enrollment/admissions - In fact, I'd say the percentage of individuals that are aware enough to care, likely already saw UNC as a step below other programs. It likely doesn't do much but elevate a UVA or similar school. It's not like it's going to knock UNC down from a top 5 public school to a #20 or something.
b) I disagree that it will be as long lasting as you might think. Again, we live in a really fast news cycle world. It won't take long for this to get overshadowed by something else... hell the current basketball stuff is enough to distract many, but they'll have one, maybe 2 basketball seasons before it likely is a footnote at best in the court of public opinion. See earlier comments about positioning statements about "at the time"... that will likely be the party line for as long as it takes to sweep this one under the rug behind them.
Not saying there will be "zero" impact, but I just don't think that it will be that big, and I definitely don't think that UGA would have been any worse off by taking a similar approach. Just my opinion though...
I don't disagree that a small segment of the population will look at it as a black mark, but I do think that:
a) it's a smaller portion of the population than you think - perception at large is more important than perception in limited groups. If a UNC degree is still seen in the general public as a coveted thing, then they likely see little impact in enrollment/admissions - In fact, I'd say the percentage of individuals that are aware enough to care, likely already saw UNC as a step below other programs. It likely doesn't do much but elevate a UVA or similar school. It's not like it's going to knock UNC down from a top 5 public school to a #20 or something.
b) I disagree that it will be as long lasting as you might think. Again, we live in a really fast news cycle world. It won't take long for this to get overshadowed by something else... hell the current basketball stuff is enough to distract many, but they'll have one, maybe 2 basketball seasons before it likely is a footnote at best in the court of public opinion. See earlier comments about positioning statements about "at the time"... that will likely be the party line for as long as it takes to sweep this one under the rug behind them.
Not saying there will be "zero" impact, but I just don't think that it will be that big, and I definitely don't think that UGA would have been any worse off by taking a similar approach. Just my opinion though...
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:34 pm to Crowknowsbest
I think the bigger admission is what is pointed out in the GTP post I linked to.
If the NCAA determines that the institutions have the ability to cheapen a degree to whatever means they see fit, by offering fraudulent classes, they are undercutting the value of the very thing they see as "fit compensation" for the student-athletes they are bringing in. At what point does this then re-spark the conversation for paying players.
If the NCAA determines that the institutions have the ability to cheapen a degree to whatever means they see fit, by offering fraudulent classes, they are undercutting the value of the very thing they see as "fit compensation" for the student-athletes they are bringing in. At what point does this then re-spark the conversation for paying players.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:34 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
People don't joke about UNC because it's a much more serious case, imo.
It is yet in the court of public perception, they have avoided the embarrassment we endured.
Posted on 10/13/17 at 12:41 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
a) it's a smaller portion of the population than you think - perception at large is more important than perception in limited groups. If a UNC degree is still seen in the general public as a coveted thing, then they likely see little impact in enrollment/admissions - In fact, I'd say the percentage of individuals that are aware enough to care, likely already saw UNC as a step below other programs. It likely doesn't do much but elevate a UVA or similar school. It's not like it's going to knock UNC down from a top 5 public school to a #20 or something.
Like I said, I might be jaded by living in Virginia around a lot of UNC people and then people who went to more-or-less peer schools. I know for a fact that the "were you an AFAM major?" digs cut UNC alums deep because there's substance to it. People are joking, but not really. High school kids hear that, and IMO it has to have some effect. I realize that that's anecdotal, but it's also anecdotal within a critical out-of-state base for UNC.
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