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re: Spinoff: NCAA Tournament Invites, Elite Eights, Sweet Sixteens by SEC schools
Posted on 3/10/16 at 8:43 am to Hawgeye
Posted on 3/10/16 at 8:43 am to Hawgeye
Alabama was a top 20/15 program from 1973 - 1995.
Tennesse was a Top 20 program from 1965 - 1983.
Vanderbilt was a Top 20 program from 1964 - 1974
LSU was a Top 25 program from 1979 - 1993.
Most years one or two of those 4 had a Top 10 team. From 1964-1989 only those 5 schools won SEC Titles. Kentucky 16, Alabama 4, Tennessee 4, LSU 3, Vanderbilt 2.
Tennesse was a Top 20 program from 1965 - 1983.
Vanderbilt was a Top 20 program from 1964 - 1974
LSU was a Top 25 program from 1979 - 1993.
Most years one or two of those 4 had a Top 10 team. From 1964-1989 only those 5 schools won SEC Titles. Kentucky 16, Alabama 4, Tennessee 4, LSU 3, Vanderbilt 2.
This post was edited on 3/10/16 at 8:48 am
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Posted on 3/10/16 at 8:45 am to SummerOfGeorge
Yea, the Mississippi State racial story should really be told. It's fantastic and not publicized enough.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 8:49 am to Hawgeye
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Arkansas did have to deal with Texas in the SWC, who also won the league 19 times while Arkansas was a part of it. Texas was crowned the 1933 National Champions and went to two Final Fours in the 40's. Then you had the emergence of Houston and Phi Slamma Jamma.
One of the best teams to never win it all.
A&M had a few shining moments in the SWC. We won 13 conference titles. Only 6 were in years we made the big dance though.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 8:52 am to SummerOfGeorge
This was the midcourt scene in the 1963 Sweet 16. (Back then, top seeds would get a bye to the Sweet 16). State, as the SEC champion did that in the regional at Michigan State that year. Loyola won their first game, then went on to beat State and eventually win the SEC Championship.
UTEP winning the whole thing with five black starters against Kentucky the next year is a sexier story from that era. Its the one everyone talks about.
On the 50th anniversary in 2013, they replicated it in Starkville. Pretty cool scene.
This post was edited on 3/10/16 at 8:54 am
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:06 am to SummerOfGeorge
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Alabama was a top 20/15 program from 1973 - 1995.
Tennesse was a Top 20 program from 1965 - 1983.
Vanderbilt was a Top 20 program from 1964 - 1974
LSU was a Top 25 program from 1979 - 1993.
Most years one or two of those 4 had a Top 10 team.
But none of those were a real threat to UK. Kentucky still won most of the league titles. Kentucky was still the only SEC team going to Final Fours, on a national level.
For instance...Arkansas had things rolling in basketball from 1977-1996. Going to four Final Fours, six Elite Eights, 10 Sweet Sixteens, and 18 NCAA Tourneys.
Arkansas came into the league and won a lot of games. Going 49-15 in league play. Ending Kentucky's long standing home winning streak. Winning 30 games two of those four years, and winning double digit conference games four consecutive years.
The SEC in the 1960's had Kentucky in the Final Four 1 time, LSU none, Alabama none, Vanderbilt none, Tennessee none
The SWC in the 1960's had Houston in the Final Four 2 times, Arkansas none, Texas none, Texas Tech none, SMU none.
The SEC in the 1970's had Kentucky in the Final Four 2 times, LSU none, Alabama none, Tennessee none, and Vandy none.
The SWC in the 1970's had Arkansas in 1 Final Four, Texas none, Houston none, Texas Tech none, SMU none.
In the 1980's The SEC had Kentucky with 1 Final Four, LSU with 2, Alabama with none, Tennessee none, and Vandy none.
In the 1980's The SWC had Houston with 3 Final Fours, Texas with none, Arkansas with none, Texas Tech with none, SMU with none.
The SWC collectively was a tougher basketball league than the SEC from 1950-1989 IMO. The teams as a whole were more competitive with one another and one team didn't rule the roost as Kentucky did in the SEC. Arkansas, Texas, Houston, SMU all had Final Four appearances from 1940-1992. Where, the SEC had only been represented in the Final Four by Kentucky, of course, and LSU.
On a national relevance scale, the SWC had more premier teams than the SEC did in basketball.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:09 am to Hawgeye
The SEC was a pretty good overall league in the 1970s-1980s. However, as you point out, they were lacking pre-1970 overall.
Arkansas would have performed very well in the 70s and 80s and probably been the clear #2, but Kentucky would still have clearly been #1 and ate up much of the league's auto bids.
Arkansas would have performed very well in the 70s and 80s and probably been the clear #2, but Kentucky would still have clearly been #1 and ate up much of the league's auto bids.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:10 am to Hawgeye
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ELITE EIGHT
1. Kentucky: 36
quote:
SWEET SIXTEEN
1. Kentucky: 41
If there were always at least 16 teams, this would mean Kentucky has a 36-5 record in Sweet Sixteen games. I doubt this is the case, as I believe the tournament had fewer than 16 teams at times in the past, but even if half of their Elite Eights didn't require a Sweet Sixteen win to get there, that would still be an 18-5 record in Sweet Sixteen games, which would still be very impressive.
Elite Eight games, on the other hand...
quote:
FINAL FOUR APPEARANCES
1. Kentucky: 17
Out of 36 tries in the Elite Eight, 17 Final Fours and, presumably, 19 losses? Arkansas, Florida and LSU all have winning records in the Elite Eight, although with obviously far fewer games played.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:15 am to SummerOfGeorge
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From 1964-1989 only those 5 schools won SEC Titles. Kentucky 16, Alabama 4, Tennessee 4, LSU 3, Vanderbilt 2.
From 1964-1989 in the SWC
Arkansas: 6
Texas: 6
Texas A&M: 6
SMU: 5
Houston: 2
Texas Tech: 2
Rice: 1
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:16 am to Hawgeye
Yea, outside of those 5 and maybe Mississippi State the league wasn't very deep. Auburn, Ole Miss, Georgia weren't very good.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:18 am to Hawgeye
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On a national relevance scale, the SWC had more premier teams than the SEC did in basketball.
No,it did not. Prior to tourney expansion in 1975 SWC Basketball was seen as JV ish. Heck, Texas won the SWC in '74 and made the NCAA's with a losing record. Rice went to the tourney a few years earlier.SWC basketball was borderline irrelevant until the late 1970's.
Vanderbilt was 5th in the nation in 1966 but lost both games to UK so no tourney. Vandy finished in the top ten in 1967 and 1968,too and would have probably been a 3 seed each year in today's tournament. Tennessee had strong teams in particular in '68, '71 and '72 in and out of the top 20 that had to sit and watch UK.Alabama won a share of the SEC in 1974 but lost the tie breaker to Vandy. So,yea, these teams were threats to Kentucky.
Arkansas' trips to the NCAA would be much fewer had they been in the SEC up until 1975. Trying to convince everyone Arkansas is some premier basketball program just doesn't work outside of NWA.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:22 am to SummerOfGeorge
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Alabama went 22-4 overall and 15-3 in the SEC in 1974. Finished ranked 14th. No NCAA Tournament.
One of the more cruel seasons in SEC Basketball. Teams could still host and play in the Regional tournament on their home court as national Champion NC State did. Alabama hosted the 1974 Mideast Regional. At that time an SEC title in effect put you in the Sweet 16.Alabama shared the title with Vanderbilt. But Vandy won both games, 73-72 and 67-65.
Well, we'll go to the NIT. Still perceived as a great tourney in the age of one bid per conference.Nope. NCAA had a rule if you host a tournament game, your team cannot go to New York an dthe NIT. 22-4, #14, SEC Co-Champs. Nothing.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:23 am to SummerOfGeorge
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Arkansas would have performed very well in the 70s and 80s and probably been the clear #2, but Kentucky would still have clearly been #1 and ate up much of the league's auto bids.
That is simply an assumption on your part. In the early 80's, Arkansas was the only team to win a conference title from 1982-1984 not named Phi Slamma Jamma.
Arkansas only appeared in the NCAA tourney 5 times prior to the expansion of the tourney. 3 of those times, Kentucky was not a part of it. Arkansas went to the Final Four in 1941 and 1945. In those two years, Kentucky was not a part of the Final Four.
There were years where Kentucky lost as many as 8 games and still won the SEC. There were years where they lost 7 games and won the league.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:26 am to Hawgeye
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There were years where Kentucky lost as many as 8 games and still won the SEC. There were years where they lost 7 games and won the league.
Kentucky generally played a pretty good non-conference schedule.Indiana,North Carolina, Purdue.
I'll give you Arkanas's performance in SWC basketball from 1978 to 1991.No doubt. But its not even up for debate about Arkansas and the whole league prior to 1975.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:26 am to Hawgeye
You are right, I did not cross reference Arkansas' tournaments with Kentucky, so you could be right. Generally Kentucky's consistent Top 10 teams stole bids from schools like Alabama and Vanderbilt in years when we had Top 10/15 teams.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:28 am to I-59 Tiger
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No,it did not. Prior to tourney expansion in 1975 SWC Basketball was seen as JV ish. Heck, Texas won the SWC in '74 and made the NCAA's with a losing record. Rice went to the tourney a few years earlier.SWC basketball was borderline irrelevant until the late 1970's.
Yet, Arkansas, Texas, Houston, SMU all made trips to the Final Four from 1940-1989.
Only Kentucky, LSU, and Georgia had Final Fours from the SEC in that same time frame.
quote:
Arkansas' trips to the NCAA would be much fewer had they been in the SEC up until 1975
No they wouldn't have. Arkansas and Kentucky only made the tourney 2 times the same year prior to the expansion. Arkansas had two final fours from 1940-1950, both years in which Kentucky was not a part of it.
Kentucky won the SEC with as many as 8 losses in a season. A couple with 7 losses.
quote:
Trying to convince everyone Arkansas is some premier basketball program just doesn't work outside of NWA.
Nobody said they were, but Arkansas is top 10 all time in Final Four appearances, Top 20 in NCAA tourney wins, and top 13 all time in NCAA invites.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:30 am to I-59 Tiger
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Kentucky generally played a pretty good non-conference schedule.Indiana,North Carolina, Purdue.
As did Arkansas. It wasn't just the SWC schedule with Arkansas. I can't speak for the others.
#1 North Carolina and Michael Jordan came to Arkansas and lost. #1 UNLV and #2 Arkansas had big OOC match ups when UNLV was the best team ever.
Cal's hatred of Arkansas goes all the way back to when he coached at UMASS with Marcus Camby when they faced Arkansas OOC yearly.
Some of my best memories as a child were Arkansas and Memphis on the court. Unfortunately, Cal put an end to that because of his hatred of all things Arkansas. It is only fitting he is 1-4 with UK playing in Bud Walton Arena.
This post was edited on 3/10/16 at 9:34 am
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:36 am to Hawgeye
quote:
Yet, Arkansas, Texas, Houston, SMU all made trips to the Final Four from 1940-1989.
Very misleading . While factually accurate its important to note that prior to seeding in 1979 the SWC Champion was placed in the Midwest Regional as the 'regionals' were truly regional. The conferences like the Big 8, Missouri Valley and independents like Oral Roberts and Oklahoma City didn't usually put up 1/2 the challenges the SEC and the Mideast faced.
The SEC Champion was playing teams like Notre Dame, Marquette, and the Big 10 Champion. I think its safe to say had Vanderbilt,Tennessee and Alabama been in the Southwest Conference from 1958 to 1974 at least one of them would have made the Final Four.
And keep in mind that Arkanas' 1941 and 1945 Final Four as well as Texas' 1943 Final Fours came when only 8 teams made the NCAA tourney. Winning one game to make the Final Four in an era when the NIT was more prestigious isn't that big of a deal.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:46 am to I-59 Tiger
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And keep in mind that Arkanas' 1941 and 1945 Final Four as well as Texas' 1943 Final Fours came when only 8 teams made the NCAA tourney. Winning one game to make the Final Four in an era when the NIT was more prestigious isn't that big of a deal.
Means nothing when every other program who made it then counts those as well.
quote:
The conferences like the Big 8, Missouri Valley and independents like Oral Roberts and Oklahoma City didn't usually put up 1/2 the challenges the SEC and the Mideast faced.
Uhhh...Kansas, Oklahoma State, etc. were always very strong programs. I think you severely underestimate the basketball played outside of the SEC. Severely.
quote:
The SEC Champion was playing teams like Notre Dame, Marquette, and the Big 10 Champion. I think its safe to say had Vanderbilt,Tennessee and Alabama been in the Southwest Conference from 1958 to 1974 at least one of them would have made the Final Four.
Again...The midwest had teams like Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Arkansas, etc. I think you don't realize it, but you are overrating programs like Marquette and Notre Dame. Marquette won a title in 1977, but only won their league one time prior to 2000. Notre Dame has only been to one final four in their history.
Those are bad examples on your part to try and support your argument.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 9:56 am to Hawgeye
quote:
Uhhh...Kansas, Oklahoma State, etc. were always very strong programs. I think you severely underestimate the basketball played outside of the SEC. Severely.
Um,no they weren't. Yes Oklahoma A&M had a great run in the 1940's and Kansas had some great teams in the 50's. Big 8 Basketball wasn't diddle post Wilt through 1974.And of course, sometimes Kentucky laid a gigantic egg like in 1971. Still Mideast Competition was much better than Midwest. Not even debatable, certainly from 1960 to 1974.
quote:
Again...The midwest had teams like Kansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Arkansas, etc. I think you don't realize it, but you are overrating programs like Marquette and Notre Dame. Marquette won a title in 1977, but only won their league one time prior to 2000. Notre Dame has only been to one final four in their history.
/quote]
Well considering Marquette didn't join a conference until the early 1990's that's not a big deal. Final Four or not, Marquette was a huge power from 1968 to 1974, when the regionals were regional.Notre Dame had some fine teams in 1970,1971 and 1974--the era we're talking about during the one bid leagues and true regionals.
[quote]Those are bad examples on your part to try and support your argument.
If anything you made very weak,lame rebuttals to cling to your belief Arkansas and SWC basketball prior to 1975 was a big deal.
Posted on 3/10/16 at 10:06 am to I-59 Tiger
quote:
Um,no they weren't. Yes Oklahoma A&M had a great run in the 1940's and Kansas had some great teams in the 50's. Big 8 Basketball wasn't diddle post Wilt through 1974.And of course, sometimes Kentucky laid a gigantic egg like in 1971. Still Mideast Competition was much better than Midwest. Not even debatable, certainly from 1960 to 1974.
Kansas won two titles from 1950-1988. They played for four total during that time. They made 9 Final Fours from 1940-1988. Oklahoma played for two national titles from 1940-1988 as well.
Of course it is debatable. Indiana is one of the most overrated programs who claims to be a blue blood of all time. Their win total, still in the 1,700's, is vastly overrated. They had only been to two Final Fours prior to the 1970's.
quote:
If anything you made very weak,lame rebuttals to cling to your belief Arkansas and SWC basketball prior to 1975 was a big deal.
You used Notre Dame and Marquette to prop up your argument. Both of which aren't that strong of programs, outside of Marquette's 1977 national title.
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