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re: Ranking the SEC baseball coaches
Posted on 3/3/21 at 1:38 pm to theenemy
Posted on 3/3/21 at 1:38 pm to theenemy
quote:
If Van Horn had went to LSU he probably has multiple National Championships right now.
Tbh if PM was at Ark and DVH was at LSU, their records and accomplishments are probably similar
1
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:11 pm to joshua2571
Can you be a top tier baseball coach, but not be fortunate to have the best players every year and win a lot of games, only to come up short of a championship every year?
Trying to keep it baseball since that's the thread, and the main reason is, that top tier talent tends to stick around in baseball until they are junior or seniors. Then you have crazy talent that's mature, along with some positions that are 2-3 deep with players that would likely start elsewhere.
I just think it's ridiculous to rate coaches when it's blatantly obvious that all things are not equal to do such a rating.
Trying to keep it baseball since that's the thread, and the main reason is, that top tier talent tends to stick around in baseball until they are junior or seniors. Then you have crazy talent that's mature, along with some positions that are 2-3 deep with players that would likely start elsewhere.
I just think it's ridiculous to rate coaches when it's blatantly obvious that all things are not equal to do such a rating.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:32 pm to joshua2571
Fairly interesting discussion. Clearly the top four coaches in the league by accomplishments are Corbin, O'Sullivan, Mainieri, and Van Horn.
Corbin, O'Sullivan, and Mainieri have all played for multiple national championships, winning at least 1. I think this fact alone separates them from Van Horn. While Van Horn was a dropped foul ball away from winning the CWS, that was (to date) his only championship series appearance.
Mainieri and Van Horn have the distinction of taking two programs to the CWS, which really speaks to their coaching, especially considering those programs were Notre Dame and Nebraska, respectively.
Surprisingly, Corbin has the fewest CWS appearances of the bunch (4). However, he has the most CWS championship series appearances (3) and championships (2).
Of the four coaches, Corbin and Van Horn took over programs that were the most removed from recent success. When Corbin was hired, Vanderbilt had not been to the NCAA Regionals since 1980. Van Horn inherited a program that had been to NCAA Regionals in 5 of the previous 8 seasons. However, Arkansas had not been to a CWS since 1989. Coincidentally, the year before Van Horn arrived, Arkansas went to the Super Regionals and was a game away from the CWS. They fell short to a Clemson team that had Corbin and O'Sullivan as assistants.
Corbin, O'Sullivan, and Van Horn have all elevated the status of their programs, while Mainieri will always (fairly or unfairly) be measured against the accomplishments of the great Skip Bertman.
Regardless, these four coaches head the top 4 programs in college baseball over the last 5 years.
Corbin, O'Sullivan, and Mainieri have all played for multiple national championships, winning at least 1. I think this fact alone separates them from Van Horn. While Van Horn was a dropped foul ball away from winning the CWS, that was (to date) his only championship series appearance.
Mainieri and Van Horn have the distinction of taking two programs to the CWS, which really speaks to their coaching, especially considering those programs were Notre Dame and Nebraska, respectively.
Surprisingly, Corbin has the fewest CWS appearances of the bunch (4). However, he has the most CWS championship series appearances (3) and championships (2).
Of the four coaches, Corbin and Van Horn took over programs that were the most removed from recent success. When Corbin was hired, Vanderbilt had not been to the NCAA Regionals since 1980. Van Horn inherited a program that had been to NCAA Regionals in 5 of the previous 8 seasons. However, Arkansas had not been to a CWS since 1989. Coincidentally, the year before Van Horn arrived, Arkansas went to the Super Regionals and was a game away from the CWS. They fell short to a Clemson team that had Corbin and O'Sullivan as assistants.
Corbin, O'Sullivan, and Van Horn have all elevated the status of their programs, while Mainieri will always (fairly or unfairly) be measured against the accomplishments of the great Skip Bertman.
Regardless, these four coaches head the top 4 programs in college baseball over the last 5 years.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 3:18 pm to joshua2571
What a shite list. O'Sullivan at 4 is an absolute joke.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 8:17 pm to gamecockman12
Although the Vanderbilt advantage exists, it is overblown. Kumar Rocker and Jack Leiter are both the sons of multimillionaire former professional athletes, and they both reportedly turned down over $2 million offers from MLB to go to college. The idea that they would've gone to Starkville or Oxford if only a few more thousand dollars in scholarships were on the table isn't realistic. They could've attended any school in the country with no concerns about finances.
The economics of college baseball are favorable to Vanderbilt for several reasons, which I'll outline in my next post.
The economics of college baseball are favorable to Vanderbilt for several reasons, which I'll outline in my next post.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 8:49 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 8:30 pm to dchog
quote:
Now we are top three in baseball attendance each year.
No discredit to Van Horn, but the state of the football program has more to do with that than him.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 8:34 pm to Diamond Dore
1. Wealth--like it or not, a lot of baseball recruiting centers around travel teams. It typically takes money to consistently make the sacrifices that travel ball requires year after year. These types of families often appreciate the academic reputation that a school like Vanderbilt can offer. And those kids do not always qualify for Opportunity Vanderbilt funds.
2. Academics--many times hand in hand with socio-economics. Look at the number of private high schools that show up on baseball rosters vs. some other sports. A family dropping anywhere from $20K to $40K a year all the way up from K-12 isn't necessarily making their decisions based a few thousand dollars here or there.
As an example, I know a wealthy family that actually stopped contributing to their kids' 529 account because by making the maximum contribution each year it was growing too large. If those kids are athletes, they'll make a decision based on where they want to go as opposed to the amount of scholarship money, because it's already taken care of. JJ Bleday had three family members that were athletes in the Ivy League, including a brother that played at Penn. Will Toffey chose to play baseball at Vanderbilt as opposed to his hockey offer from Yale. Those types of recruits I'm sure Corbin is competing as much with Stanford or Duke as Ole Miss or Arkansas, even though the latter are great baseball schools.
3. Competition--Baseball is favorable to Vanderbilt from a competitive standpoint based not just on who they can recruit, but who their SEC opponents don't necessarily get. In football or basketball, the kid that reads on an 8th grade level can not even be recruited at Vanderbilt, but he might line up against the Commodores for a conference opponent. Baseball is different in that kids that aren't interested in school don't get shoehorned into college. They just go to the minors if they have no interest in class.
4. I think a couple of years ago the average student loan for members of the Vanderbilt baseball team was something like $19K. Some kids probably went free, while others may have been paying a lot. But there are a lot of misconceptions. It's been well documented that Dansby Swanson took out student loans. Ended up being worth it for him, because he went 1-1 in the draft. Which brings me to...
5. No income tax---Tennessee is a no income tax state, which means that if Dansby Swanson or JJ Bleday paid FULL PRICE at Vanderbilt over a full scholarship to Ole Miss or Miss. State, they still could theoretically come out ahead financially if they established residency in Tennessee, because of the 5% income tax in Mississippi on their 6 million dollar plus signing bonuses. At a certain level of the draft, for students like Rocker and Leiter, that matters too.
Vanderbilt is at a major disadvantage in admissions in several sports, and they're at a facilities and resource disadvantage in many sports as well. Baseball is a sport where they do have some advantages.
So yes, advantages exist, but it takes a lot of work by Corbin and his staff to make sure those come to fruition. He's a phenomenal coach, however, and would likely be successful wherever he went, given enough time. As far as recruiting is concerned I'd argue Florida and LSU have had comparable or even superior talent on many occasions in the last decade, by using the advantages at their disposal, like tradition, facilities and geography.
2. Academics--many times hand in hand with socio-economics. Look at the number of private high schools that show up on baseball rosters vs. some other sports. A family dropping anywhere from $20K to $40K a year all the way up from K-12 isn't necessarily making their decisions based a few thousand dollars here or there.
As an example, I know a wealthy family that actually stopped contributing to their kids' 529 account because by making the maximum contribution each year it was growing too large. If those kids are athletes, they'll make a decision based on where they want to go as opposed to the amount of scholarship money, because it's already taken care of. JJ Bleday had three family members that were athletes in the Ivy League, including a brother that played at Penn. Will Toffey chose to play baseball at Vanderbilt as opposed to his hockey offer from Yale. Those types of recruits I'm sure Corbin is competing as much with Stanford or Duke as Ole Miss or Arkansas, even though the latter are great baseball schools.
3. Competition--Baseball is favorable to Vanderbilt from a competitive standpoint based not just on who they can recruit, but who their SEC opponents don't necessarily get. In football or basketball, the kid that reads on an 8th grade level can not even be recruited at Vanderbilt, but he might line up against the Commodores for a conference opponent. Baseball is different in that kids that aren't interested in school don't get shoehorned into college. They just go to the minors if they have no interest in class.
4. I think a couple of years ago the average student loan for members of the Vanderbilt baseball team was something like $19K. Some kids probably went free, while others may have been paying a lot. But there are a lot of misconceptions. It's been well documented that Dansby Swanson took out student loans. Ended up being worth it for him, because he went 1-1 in the draft. Which brings me to...
5. No income tax---Tennessee is a no income tax state, which means that if Dansby Swanson or JJ Bleday paid FULL PRICE at Vanderbilt over a full scholarship to Ole Miss or Miss. State, they still could theoretically come out ahead financially if they established residency in Tennessee, because of the 5% income tax in Mississippi on their 6 million dollar plus signing bonuses. At a certain level of the draft, for students like Rocker and Leiter, that matters too.
Vanderbilt is at a major disadvantage in admissions in several sports, and they're at a facilities and resource disadvantage in many sports as well. Baseball is a sport where they do have some advantages.
So yes, advantages exist, but it takes a lot of work by Corbin and his staff to make sure those come to fruition. He's a phenomenal coach, however, and would likely be successful wherever he went, given enough time. As far as recruiting is concerned I'd argue Florida and LSU have had comparable or even superior talent on many occasions in the last decade, by using the advantages at their disposal, like tradition, facilities and geography.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 9:36 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 8:42 pm to bigDgator
quote:
Can someone explain to me how Vandy has this huge advantage? I’m a baseball noob.
Explained by a Vandy grad
So take it for what it's worth
Not much of an advantage according to him but a pretty informative read.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 9:00 pm to Belue2Scott
It had more to do with the interest level of going to the CWS in 2004 for the first time in 15 years than the state of the football program.
Before that, no one cared for baseball unless you were a true die hard and it wasn't a topic talked a lot in Fayetteville.
I been to both baseball games in the DVH and Norm Debriyn years at Baum stadium. Both atmospheres were night and day.
What has made DVH successful here was that he was left a lone and didn't have the brass meddle in his program. That may have to do with Arkansas baseball not producing a lot of revenue for the school. So they didn't care at that time.
So in over the last 50 years we had two head coaches in Norm and DVH. It is because of that we didn't have any setbacks in baseball as it was slowly being built from nothing back in 1970. Now the football and basketball programs is the total opposite. Knee jerk decisions screwed them over again and again.
Before that, no one cared for baseball unless you were a true die hard and it wasn't a topic talked a lot in Fayetteville.
I been to both baseball games in the DVH and Norm Debriyn years at Baum stadium. Both atmospheres were night and day.
What has made DVH successful here was that he was left a lone and didn't have the brass meddle in his program. That may have to do with Arkansas baseball not producing a lot of revenue for the school. So they didn't care at that time.
So in over the last 50 years we had two head coaches in Norm and DVH. It is because of that we didn't have any setbacks in baseball as it was slowly being built from nothing back in 1970. Now the football and basketball programs is the total opposite. Knee jerk decisions screwed them over again and again.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 9:02 pm to Diamond Dore
quote:
No income tax---Tennessee is a no income tax state, which means that if Dansby Swanson or JJ Bleday paid FULL PRICE at Vanderbilt over a full scholarship to Ole Miss or Miss. State, they still would've come out ahead financially, because of the 5% income tax in Mississippi on their 6 million dollar plus signing bonuses. At a certain level of the draft, for students like Rocker and Leiter, that matters too.
So when did college students become a legal resident in the state of the college they attend? He went to HS in GA and would have been a legal resident there even after 3 years at Vandy.
ETA:
He signed the contract at his parents home in Marietta
quote:
Hall-of-Fame former manager Tony LaRussa, currently the Diamondbacks’ Chief Baseball Officer, visited Swanson at his home in Marietta last week, and the contract was finalized with only 10 minutes remaining until Friday’s deadline to ink draft picks.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 9:07 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 9:16 pm to RD Dawg
There are ways you can establish legal residency in the state where you attend college. I don't know if Swanson or Bleday did so, but it would be a smart move and save a chunk of money in the case of a high first round pick. Might not be worth the hassle for everyone, but someone who knows they are going to be a high pick might benefit from it.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 9:18 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 9:21 pm to Diamond Dore
Its pretty damn difficult and its illegal if your parent claim you as a dependent.
LINK
I honestly don't think it would part of any recruiting pitch.
LINK
quote:
if you pay resident tuition rates or non-resident tuition rates, it has absolutely no bearing on your home state for your taxes.
Generally, an undergraduate qualifies to be claimed as a dependent on the parent's tax return. So the student's home state is the state they lived in (usually with the parents) before starting college. Each state has their own residency requirements and definition of what constitutes a resident of that state. Attending a college in that state isn't one of them.
Generally, for federal tax purposes your home state is:
- Where you got your drivers license issued (and your resident address as shown on that license)
- Where your vehicle is registered
- Where you are registered to vote
I honestly don't think it would part of any recruiting pitch.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 9:26 pm to RD Dawg
Fair point. I edited my original post. Maybe a non-issue. But many high net worth families that have access to financial planning have probably considered the possibility of it. They think of everything. They aren't necessarily like your average family. They pay people to find every tax advantage that exists.
For example, if someone has a hefty 529 account, they may not necessarily benefit from a completely full scholarship even if offered, because it will cost them tax money to NOT use the 529 funds unless they have another eligible person to pass the 529. They may be paying a certain amount regardless, whether it's in taxes or tuition, so a "full scholarship" isn't necessarily the enticement it would be to an average family.
For example, if someone has a hefty 529 account, they may not necessarily benefit from a completely full scholarship even if offered, because it will cost them tax money to NOT use the 529 funds unless they have another eligible person to pass the 529. They may be paying a certain amount regardless, whether it's in taxes or tuition, so a "full scholarship" isn't necessarily the enticement it would be to an average family.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 9:35 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:12 pm to Diamond Dore
I think what Vandy has accomplished
is pretty amazing and it shows what can be done with the right coach and commitment from the school and after reading the post from the former player,I really don't your tuition assistance program is a big factor in whats going on up there.
is pretty amazing and it shows what can be done with the right coach and commitment from the school and after reading the post from the former player,I really don't your tuition assistance program is a big factor in whats going on up there.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:13 pm to MetroAtlantaGatorFan
quote:
Can someone explain to me how Vandy has this huge advantage? I’m a baseball noob.
Vandy can use FULL athletic scholarships for 11 players, and for the rest of the entire team, including walkons, they can get a full scholarship that is available to all students called Opportunity Vanderbilt or something like that.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:18 pm to MedDawg
quote:
Vandy can use FULL athletic scholarships for 11 players, and for the rest of the entire team, including walkons, they can get a full scholarship that is available to all students called Opportunity Vanderbilt or something like that.
Nah,its more complicated than that and not available to "all" students.
Its needs based and can be counted against the scholarships in certain circumstances. LINK
UGA probably has close to the same advantage with HOPE as do other SEC schools.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 10:22 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:21 pm to MedDawg
quote:
Vandy can use FULL athletic scholarships for 11 players, and for the rest of the entire team, including walkons, they can get a full scholarship that is available to all students called Opportunity Vanderbilt or something like that.
Well, if others had more donors for endowments similar to that, they could do it as well.
It's like complaining about AD monies and facilities being unfair at major football schools with major booster donations compared to others.
Maximize the advantages you have. If you have none, it's not Vandy's fault.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:30 pm to Che Boludo
quote:
Well, if others had more donors for endowments similar to that, they could do it as well.
But his statement isn't correct
quote:
like complaining about AD monies and facilities being unfair at major football schools with major booster donations compared to others
Having big donors step up and improve facilities is one thing but if you're talking about an advantage in pure scholarship numbers its another.
BTW,it's not my opinion that Vandy has a big advantage over other SEC schools when it comes to baseball scholorships
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:38 pm to RD Dawg
MedDawg,
It's not a full scholarship for all the non-scholarships and walk-ons---it depends upon their individual financial circumstances, but they can apply just as every other Vanderbilt student can apply.
Here is a brochure which is a few years old, but it gives you the idea:LINK
It's not a full scholarship for all the non-scholarships and walk-ons---it depends upon their individual financial circumstances, but they can apply just as every other Vanderbilt student can apply.
Here is a brochure which is a few years old, but it gives you the idea:LINK
Posted on 3/3/21 at 10:50 pm to Gnash
quote:
Tbh if PM was at Ark and DVH was at LSU, their records and accomplishments are probably similar
Maybe so,
I was trying to give yall a compliment. When it comes to yalls program...before Maineri I thought yall were one of the best programs in the country. To me he has underacheived.
LSU Prior to Maineri
College World Series appearances
1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2004
NCAA Tournament champions
1991, 1993, 1996, 1997, 2000
With Maineri
NCAA world series appearances
2008, 2009, 2013, 2015, 2017
NCAA tournament championships
2009
For comparison
Arkansas Prior to DVH
College World Series appearances
1979, 1985, 1987, 1989
With DVH
College World Series appearances
2004, 2009, 2012, 2015, 2018, 2019
Maineri took over a program that had won 5 National championships and 13 trips to Omaha and were only 4 years removed from going to Omaha whereas DVH took over a program that had historically been to Omaha 4 times and was 15 years from the last time they went to Omaha.
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