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re: How about this Auburn controversy
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:46 am to Teague
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:46 am to Teague
Freedom for religion and freedom from religion are two completely different and diametrically opposed things. Our nation was not founded on the idea of freedom from religion - quite the contrary, actually. Those who push for that end are, as per the usual, advancing the cause of Marxism while thinking they are "curing social ills". The way our government is supposed to work is that religion can be exercised in public fora to everyone's content. The only stipulation is that all forms of religious expression must be given equal right to participate. So, a Christian prayer before a football game in no way violates the Constitution. Now, if there were Muslims present who also wanted to say a public prayer and they were prevented from doing so by an elected or appointed official, that would violate the Constitution, but that is not what is occurring here. Instead, crusading atheists/Marxists are attempting to have public religious expression outlawed, which is both unconstitutional, and the exact same thing they claim to believe Christians are trying to do to them (force them to participate in their worldview), but in reverse.
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Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:47 am to pvilleguru
quote:
No. We were talking about in the absence of religion. If after everyone has stopped making decisions based on religion, we were only left with compassion, respect, empathy, etc., we'd be in a better place.
And for those who disagree? Here is my point. You are automatically assuming that Christianity is wrong. fair enough. But consider just for a minute that Christianity just might be right. tehn being free from religion would have catastrophic consequences, and people would certainly not be better off. So, in shorty you would be forcing people to believe like you do. I though that was what people criticized Christians for.
quote:The odds of people winning the lottery is much smaller but somebody still wins it. And, there are tons of scientific theories on evolution, global warming, origin of the universe....does that mean we should ignore them all and assume none of them are correct?
It very well could be true, but based on how many gods humanity have worshipped in our past, and even present, the likelihood that the Christian god is the one true god is fairly small.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:49 am to Teague
FFRF has been targeting poorer cities that do the nativity scenes at the govt buildings as well. And it mostly works. The cities don’t have the money to battle in court, so they are strongarmmed into stopping.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:50 am to GlossuRabban
quote:
So, I can assume you agree that Auburn is overstepping the boundaries?
quote:
Yes. And I have personal experience with it as an athlete at Auburn that I have shared in the past on the board.
Fair enough, and you have personal experience. for the record, as a Christian, I do not think any athletes should be forced to participate in prayer or any religious event. however, if people choose to participate, I also believe they should be allowed to. I also think that outside groups should stay out of it.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:51 am to Teague
quote:
What if I said the same thing about Muslim or Satanist ideas?
Is Freedom From Religion trying to stop them? I haven't seen nor heard about it if so.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:53 am to Goldtide1
AU is perfectly within it's rights. The chaplain is hired by a 3rd party. The football program is self-sufficient and doesn't rely on state tax money. Jeremiah Castille might be able to help you understand that you should look at the plank in your own eye.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:54 am to DawgsLife
quote:
Is Freedom From Religion trying to stop them? I haven't seen nor heard about it if so.
I just posted about 4 paragraphs and a link on the last page about why you haven't heard about it.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:54 am to DawgsLife
quote:
tehn being free from religion would have catastrophic consequences, and people would certainly not be better off.
How so? We would have kept the best aspects of the religion, but instead of relying on a superior being, we've shifted the responsibilities of looking out for one another onto ourselves.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:54 am to AU24
If anything can be fuqed up then you can bet yankee's will be leading the charge.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:54 am to Teague
quote:
From a practical standpoint, the answer to this question was easy. FFRF acts on complaints from our members or members of the public, and no one had complained to us about this situation until it was already a lawsuit. But that is not the point Starnes wanted to make. He sought to make us appear biased and paint us as anti-Christian, rather than pro-separation of state and church.
I wonder who complained about Auburn? I don't see anywhere where it was mentioned.
quote:Very few complaints...I haven't seen anywhere where even one action has been taken against these groups. If they act on complaints, then there should be lawsuits against these groups brought by the FFR.
FFRF accordingly receives very few complaints about Muslim violations. We receive very few complaints about Jewish, Hindu, Wiccan or other minority religious entanglements with government, either. When FFRF receives any bona fide complaint about any Establishment Clause violation, we research it and try to take action, depending on the facts and the legal precedent.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:58 am to DawgsLife
quote:
The odds of people winning the lottery is much smaller but somebody still wins it
Is it? We know for a fact that there is a lottery and there will be a winner.
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 10:00 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 9:59 am to pvilleguru
quote:
How so? We would have kept the best aspects of the religion, but instead of relying on a superior being, we've shifted the responsibilities of looking out for one another onto ourselves.
Dude. Okay. Under our scenario the Christians are assumed to be true.
This means, that people should accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and witness to other people. They should openly profess their faith. If you eliminate these things....I mean, you do see the problem, right?
You cannot eliminate religion and adhere to religion. They are mutually exclusive of each other.
By eliminating religion, people would nto have access to heaven and would be doomed to hell. Is this your idea of better off?
This post was edited on 10/29/18 at 10:00 am
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:00 am to DawgsLife
quote:
Very few complaints...I haven't seen anywhere where even one action has been taken against these groups. If they act on complaints, then there should be lawsuits against these groups brought by the FFR.
Be honest with yourself. You're not trying to understand. You're trying to rationalize what you want to believe. There's an entire page on their website that explains why they don't get a lot of muslim complaints.
But, just to prove you wrong, here's one they targeted.
LINK
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:02 am to pvilleguru
quote:
Is it? We know for a fact that there is a lottery and there will be a winner.
Ummm....thta was my point. You said odds were small that the Christian religion was the correct way. The odds of it are immaterial as somebody has to be right. Whether it is the Christians, Muslims atheists, Hindis,...somebody is right.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:04 am to DawgsLife
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The odds of it are immaterial as somebody has to be right.
That's not how odds work at all. In fact, it's far more likely that none of them are correct.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:07 am to DawgsLife
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You cannot eliminate religion and adhere to religion. They are mutually exclusive of each other
Compassion, empathy, respect, etc. are not exclusive to religion or Christianity.
quote:
By eliminating religion, people would nto have access to heaven and would be doomed to hell. Is this your idea of better off?
If your god is condemning people who loved their neighbors as they loved themselves, is that a god you want to follow?
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:10 am to Teague
quote:
But, just to prove you wrong, here's one they targeted.
I would argue one does not prove anything. However, I would admit that it is one more than I was aware of.
There are countless examples of Muslims having prayer at high schools with rooms provided for this purpose. I find it difficult to believe that they respond only to situations only when a complaint is filed, though.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:10 am to AU24
quote:
A Wisconsin-based secular group
I apologize on behalf of my state. We're a weird place. We have people like this...and then we also have the John Birch Society. We can't make our minds up.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:12 am to pvilleguru
quote:
Compassion, empathy, respect, etc. are not exclusive to religion or Christianity.
Nor did i ever say they were.
I said that assuming Christianity is true, that those are not enough in the grand scheme of things. quote:
If your god is condemning people who loved their neighbors as they loved themselves, is that a god you want to follow?
Absolutely. Loving your neighbor is not the only thing that makes people good. And being good is ambiguous and subjective.
There are those people in the world that thought Adolf Hitler was good.
Posted on 10/29/18 at 10:13 am to wdeagle
quote:
AU is perfectly within it's rights. The chaplain is hired by a 3rd party. The football program is self-sufficient and doesn't rely on state tax money.
I haven't read the specifics of FFRF's complaint, but I'm going to bet if they get the info they're requesting, then push the issue, it's because they do have a case. They know the laws.
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