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re: Obama to Executive Order gun control in a few days ...
Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:20 pm to cas4t
Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:20 pm to cas4t
quote:
What is so bad about at least attempting to check if someone has a history of mental health issues?
There are a few perceived issues here. One is what qualifies as "history of mental health issues" and who gets to decide. Mental health issues can be everywhere from extremely minor to bat shite crazy and it is difficult to pinpoint where someone lands on that spectrum. The other concern is that many people with a legitimate desire to seek health for their problems will be hesitant to seek treatment because they would fear ending up on a list. I do think that there needs to be some research into possible solutions in that regard but I don't think people who are wary of such action are "gun nuts."
This post was edited on 12/28/15 at 2:23 pm
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Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:22 pm to GnashRebel
I forgot to mention that what you would be asking for is a government list of "the crazies." Currently the government does not maintain such a database end the possibility for abuse should such a list ever get out should be terrifying to all people.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:33 pm to GnashRebel
I think the only way around that would be for health care professionals to have access to some sort of system where they can report individuals under their care as not being fit own a firearm. Don't list the affliction, nor the reason, and it'd only show up if a background check was run.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:39 pm to GnashRebel
quote:
One is what qualifies as "history of mental health issues" and who gets to decide.
No idea, since this is all clearly so new. I'd assume they'd come up with something involving renowned psychologists and psychiatrists.
As for the rest of your post, who says there is a list? That seems a bit presumptuous. And if someone doesn't want to get treatment for fear of ending up on a list of people who can't get guns, then that person probably shouldn't own a gun. There will never be a perfect system.
What I gathered most from your post is that there are a lot of unknowns, which is obviously true.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 2:41 pm to The Spleen
HIPAA laws should still be enforced, of course. There is no list nor will there ever be as long as this is treated the same way as anything else involving an individual's medical records.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:06 pm to cas4t
quote:
so bad about expanding background checks?
What is so bad about tracing a gun back to a seller?
What is so bad about at least attempting to check if someone has a history of mental health issues?
Nothing is inherently wrong with any of it, the problem is the doors such things open for those who REALLY hate guns.
For instance, what psychiatric conditions should disallow one to own a gun? How long before say, anyone with a prior history of depression isn't allowed to own a gun? How long before someone who had a suicide attempt 20 years ago can't own a gun?
The problem with your proposals is that they can easily be used to, over a period a time, increase substantially the number of citizens not allowed to buy guns. Over a period of time, eventually enough people will have been without guns for long enough that more restrictive legislation goes through unopposed. The process continues until one day, it is no longer unthinkable to simply take the few remaining guns from the citizenry.
I hate the slippery slope argument, but it is valid on this instance. We've seen it happen in other countries.
This post was edited on 12/28/15 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:24 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
For instance, what psychiatric conditions should disallow one to own a gun? How long before say, anyone with a prior history of depression isn't allowed to own a gun? How long before someone who had a suicide attempt 20 years ago can't own a gun?
All fair questions and something that should be considered carefully by those chosen to head up the project. I won't pretend to know. I'm in insurance.
quote:
The problem with your proposals is that they can easily be used to, over a period a time, increase substantially the number of citizens not allowed to buy guns. Over a period of time, eventually enough people will have been without guns for long enough that more restrictive legislation goes through unopposed. The process continues until one day, it is no longer unthinkable to simply take the few remaining guns from the citizenry.
This is wild speculation.
It's hard to have answers to questions that haven't been asked before. This is all brand new.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:35 pm to cas4t
I don't think it is purely speculative given the sheer number of politicians and lawmakers all the way up to the USSC who have stated their desire to restrict access to firearms and in some cases remove them entirely from everyday society.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:38 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I hate the slippery slope argument, but it is valid on this instance. We've seen it happen in other countries.
I too hate the slippery slope argument. It's so overused by alarmists.
The precedent in other countries is what gives me pause when it comes to restrictions on firearms, though. Legitimately concerning.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:45 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
The precedent in other countries is what gives me pause when it comes to restrictions on firearms, though. Legitimately concerning.
I think it's pretty well known that the US is another animal when it comes to our guns. I think it's a far stretch to go from expanding background checks to all out banning in this country in particular.
The far left who think no one needs a gun are a very small group of people in comparison to the rest of us.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 3:51 pm to scrooster
quote:
Tax ammunition into oblivion and encourage the prosecution of gun manufacturers and bullet producers for shootings using their products.
President can't raise taxes it must be done through congress. There's already been a court case ruling that manufacturers can't be held liable for individual misuse of a gun.
quote:
New Federal regulations which will permit, without a warrant, any civil authority to enter a home of a registered gun owner to check for gun safety when it comes to the “proper” storage of guns. Said gun can be confiscated and the owner will be subject to arrest and fines if a gun does not meet governmental storage regulations. The new regulations will be devised to prevent one from using the gun in a moment’s notice.
Blatantly unconstitutional and would get slapped down by the courts
The only thing in that list he could legally do via EO is the Feds purchasing ammo to create a shortage, but that costs money that must be allocated by congress to his agencies. He could possibly expand the ATF background checks, not not positive.
The rest of that is fear mongering...those are moves that would cause a massive backlash and would be unconstitutional
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:10 pm to cas4t
quote:
As for the rest of your post, who says there is a list?
There has to be a list or at least a flag from which a list could be derived. Its not like the gun store is going to call each psychiatrist in the country to figure out if the guy has a history of mental illness. There has to be some type of database to check against. That is my point, you are clearly well intentioned but when you run for office as a liberal democrat, the local gun store owner or more likely someone who gained access to the system can just run a check on you uncover that you are banned from buying firearms due to mental illness and then it gets used against you. These are fears that have always followed attempts to track mental illness for any reason, not just purchasing guns.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:13 pm to cas4t
We are a different animal, but not to the point where parallels can be drawn.
Honestly, I don't even care about the right/left aspect of things. Just thinking about it practically more than anything.
Honestly, I don't even care about the right/left aspect of things. Just thinking about it practically more than anything.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:32 pm to scrooster
Frick that jug eared Kenyan. I will be so glad when he is gone.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:34 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
I don't even care about the right/left aspect of things.
I agree. This shouldn't be partisan but we've made it into a "youre either with us or against us" situation to sway voters.
There should never be a major issue that one side considers too off limits to even sit at the table for discussion. Unfortunately this is whats happening. We all know something needs to happen to help with the gun violence and obviously MORE guns and access to them isn't the answer, so yes one side is being more ridiculous than the other about this particular subject.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:36 pm to GnashRebel
I'm just brain storming here but it could be treated similarly to a prescription. No need for a database then. Each time you want to purchase a gun, you provide the gun store owner with basically a note from a psychiatrist saying you are cleared. This is pretty practical IMO since people develop mental health issues anyways. One year you might be normal and one year you might not be.
Of course then you have to worry about corruption within the field of psychiatry.
I won't pretend to know the answer.
Of course then you have to worry about corruption within the field of psychiatry.
I won't pretend to know the answer.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 4:37 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I don't either even though I've mentioned right and left in this thread. I'm sick of this being a political issue. At some point folks need to meet in the middle. Hopefully then the slippery slope won't be as slippery.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 5:00 pm to cas4t
quote:
I'm sick of this being a political issue.
doesn't get much more political than discussing whether or not laws should be created which would strip certain people of their 2nd amendment right
This post was edited on 12/28/15 at 5:01 pm
Posted on 12/28/15 at 5:08 pm to Gnar Cat21
There have been no discussions on how this administration would go about expanding background checks and y'all are already acting as though the ATF is at your front door.
I've never seen anything like it.
I've never seen anything like it.
Posted on 12/28/15 at 5:10 pm to Gnar Cat21
quote:
certain people
Like psychopaths? Jesus christ can we just listen to what is being proposed before flying off the crazy handle?
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