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Posted on 9/25/17 at 7:54 am to LukeSidewalker
quote:
we evolved from apes or monkeys or whatever some claim,
Scientists don't claim this. We evolved from a common ancestor
Posted on 9/25/17 at 10:14 am to Perfect Circle
Correct. I don't believe in anything. I accept that which exists. That which has observational and reproducible evidence.
While humanity seems to have evolved to strongly employ a "belief system" (which I think comes from our ability to imagine) in the brain, some of us retain the natural view of the world that we share with other mammals.
While humanity seems to have evolved to strongly employ a "belief system" (which I think comes from our ability to imagine) in the brain, some of us retain the natural view of the world that we share with other mammals.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 11:39 am to Kentucker
Just curious, were you raised in church? We're you taught about atheism? Are any of your friends Christian?
Is it disbelief in the reality of God, or the nature of God? Do you reject the possibility that there could be a spiritual truth out there that is bigger than humanity?
Is it disbelief in the reality of God, or the nature of God? Do you reject the possibility that there could be a spiritual truth out there that is bigger than humanity?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 5:01 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:Yes.
Just curious, were you raised in church?
quote:No. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
We're you taught about atheism?
quote:Yes. Many.
Are any of your friends Christian?
quote:Neither. There is no evidence for a god or gods. To disbelieve is unnecessary.
Is it disbelief in the reality of God, or the nature of God?
quote:There is no evidence for spirits and to make the effort to reject the possibility is unnecessary.
Do you reject the possibility that there could be a spiritual truth out there that is bigger than humanity?
The word atheist has come to mean anti-theism. I am not antireligion, except when it threatens to mix with government. Then it's important to fight against it. I am areligious, meaning that I don't include it in my life.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 6:50 pm to Kentucker
Final questions: Did something happen in your life that caused you to go from belief to disbelief? You said you were raised in church. Did you ever believe in God? Is your atheism a result of your own observations of the world, and how it works?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 11:48 pm to Perfect Circle
My goodness, I hope you're asking these questions with the goal of learning about a type of person you haven't encountered before. If you're interested in me personally, I'm going to get the willies. 
No. While as a child I tried to conform to my parents' wishes, religion didn't make a lot of sense. When I became an adult, I recognized a pattern of religious social inculcation that emphasized the benefits of social conformity rather than some supernatural relationship with an entity that was beyond any physicality. So, in short, I never accepted what I was taught. There was no logic to any of it.
No. Whenever I researclhed the subject I found no evidence.
I don't describe myself as an atheist because, as I said, that word has taken on a social connotation of anti-theism. I only oppose religion when people try to mix it with government. I use the word areligious to describe my regard for religion.
quote:
Did something happen in your life that caused you to go from belief to disbelief?
No. While as a child I tried to conform to my parents' wishes, religion didn't make a lot of sense. When I became an adult, I recognized a pattern of religious social inculcation that emphasized the benefits of social conformity rather than some supernatural relationship with an entity that was beyond any physicality. So, in short, I never accepted what I was taught. There was no logic to any of it.
quote:
You said you were raised in church. Did you ever believe in God?
No. Whenever I researclhed the subject I found no evidence.
quote:
Is your atheism a result of your own observations of the world, and how it works?
I don't describe myself as an atheist because, as I said, that word has taken on a social connotation of anti-theism. I only oppose religion when people try to mix it with government. I use the word areligious to describe my regard for religion.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 6:22 am to Kentucker
You're right. I've never met someone who out who is anti-theist. I know y'all are out there, I've just never had the chance to engage one of you.
Thank you for your patience!
To me disbelief in God is illogical, and real science is the legitimate uncovering of His truths. I guess it comes down to Faith. We all have to have faith in something.
Thank you for your patience!
To me disbelief in God is illogical, and real science is the legitimate uncovering of His truths. I guess it comes down to Faith. We all have to have faith in something.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 11:22 am to Perfect Circle
To be clear, I am not anti-theist. I am merely areligious. I don't subscribe to any religion or beliefs. To me, religion and beliefs are illogical. Always have been.
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I think evolution is responsible for the role that religion plays in the human mind. While there may not be a "religion gene" per se, I do think epigenetics plays a strong role in the intensity with which a person feels religious.
I think it ranges from a near zero effect in myself and others to extremely high in zealots such as Buddhist monks who commit acts of self-immolation, radical Muslims who kill "infidels" and Christian evangelists who feel a compulsion to "spread the Word."
I also think religion, through evolution, grew out of the need for a hierarchy that humans and other social animals developed. Before the modern human brain evolved, matters of hierarchy were settled by brawn only. The biggest and strongest occupied the top tier.
The brain was a big equalizer, however. Brawn became secondary to cunning. Now the smartest occupied the top position. The smartest got to the top by convincing others that they could do things for the group that the physically strongest could not, such as find food.
This tactic became religion when the smart guys began to display "magic tricks." Then, to solidify their hold on the group, even on the brawniest, they attributed their "magic" to an all powerful entity that conveniently chose to remain unseen and who communicated only via its "chosen ones." This tactic has worked with the majority of humans ever since.
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I think evolution is responsible for the role that religion plays in the human mind. While there may not be a "religion gene" per se, I do think epigenetics plays a strong role in the intensity with which a person feels religious.
I think it ranges from a near zero effect in myself and others to extremely high in zealots such as Buddhist monks who commit acts of self-immolation, radical Muslims who kill "infidels" and Christian evangelists who feel a compulsion to "spread the Word."
I also think religion, through evolution, grew out of the need for a hierarchy that humans and other social animals developed. Before the modern human brain evolved, matters of hierarchy were settled by brawn only. The biggest and strongest occupied the top tier.
The brain was a big equalizer, however. Brawn became secondary to cunning. Now the smartest occupied the top position. The smartest got to the top by convincing others that they could do things for the group that the physically strongest could not, such as find food.
This tactic became religion when the smart guys began to display "magic tricks." Then, to solidify their hold on the group, even on the brawniest, they attributed their "magic" to an all powerful entity that conveniently chose to remain unseen and who communicated only via its "chosen ones." This tactic has worked with the majority of humans ever since.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 2:26 pm to Kentucker
Tuck, that's a lot of conjecture, without any scientific proof or facts! Are you saying a person is predisposed to belief in a Higher Power based on chemical reactions in DNA?
Since we are saying what we "think," I think God has hardwired us for belief in Him. Nearly every ancient society yet discovered had a belief in something bigger than themselves. According to scientists, the most ancient ruins discovered to date, Gobekli Tepe, in southern Turkey, were built for religious purposes.
Your opinion on religion and evolution, while interesting, seem wildly fantastic to me! No doubt people have used religion to maintain a hold on others, but remember, religion is man-made. I embrace a relationship with Jesus, not religion. To me His advent is the greatest act of Love that could ever be conceived, and could never be conceived by man-made religion. "For God so loved the world..."
Consider Jesus, you know, His existence has been proven as fact. He is who He said was. That's what I think (believe).
Since we are saying what we "think," I think God has hardwired us for belief in Him. Nearly every ancient society yet discovered had a belief in something bigger than themselves. According to scientists, the most ancient ruins discovered to date, Gobekli Tepe, in southern Turkey, were built for religious purposes.
Your opinion on religion and evolution, while interesting, seem wildly fantastic to me! No doubt people have used religion to maintain a hold on others, but remember, religion is man-made. I embrace a relationship with Jesus, not religion. To me His advent is the greatest act of Love that could ever be conceived, and could never be conceived by man-made religion. "For God so loved the world..."
Consider Jesus, you know, His existence has been proven as fact. He is who He said was. That's what I think (believe).
Posted on 9/26/17 at 3:57 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
Tuck, that's a lot of conjecture, without any scientific proof or facts!
Of course it's conjecture!
It's an opinion based upon my knowledge of epigenetics and human behavior. I love to look for the "big picture."
quote:
Are you saying a person is predisposed to belief in a Higher Power based on chemical reactions in DNA?
Not predisposed but having a proclivity for, depending upon gene expressions. Epigenetics is showing us that our genes don't hardwire us instinctually like they do with simpler animals. Rather, mostly by chance, the way they express themselves during development and growth provides extreme variation in characteristics seen in people. Instincts in humans have been "softened" by epigenetics.
quote:
Since we are saying what we "think," I think God has hardwired us for belief in Him. Nearly every ancient society yet discovered had a belief in something bigger than themselves. According to scientists, the most ancient ruins discovered to date, Gobekli Tepe, in southern Turkey, were built for religious purposes.
I don't attribute it to a supernatural being but I said as much in my previous post. I would emphasize that this "programing," which I attribute to evolution and you say is by God, is not the same for every person. Like every other genetic/epigenetic human characteristic it is variable in its manifestation. Some, like me, have very little or no expression of the characteristic and others, like you, experience it strongly enough to use it in their lives.
quote:
Your opinion on religion and evolution, while interesting, seem wildly fantastic to me!
And I hope you can accept that, from my perspective, yours is equally strange, even alien, to me. Vive la différence!
quote:
No doubt people have used religion to maintain a hold on others, but remember, religion is man-made. I embrace a relationship with Jesus, not religion. To me His advent is the greatest act of Love that could ever be conceived, and could never be conceived by man-made religion. "For God so loved the world..." Consider Jesus, you know, His existence has been proven as fact. He is who He said was. That's what I think (believe).
From an outside view by a person who is well versed in Christianity, I think Christians would be much happier, less conflicted and easier to get along with if they'd just drop the Old Testament and adhere to Jesus' teachings. The OT is like religious porn when you read it. And so violent.
No wonder the Muslims, with whom Christians share the Old Testament, are the pariahs of the modern world. If not for the New Testament, Christians might rival Muslims as the craziest theists on earth.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 4:01 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
I think God has hardwired us for belief in Him.
I believe everyone, deep inside knows the truth. In debates on whether God exists or not, some people ask if God is fair, then how is the person who was born deep in the jungle and never hears about God supposed to go to heaven? I believe we all know without having to hear it. We all have innate knowledge of morality as well. We know, even from little, that it is wrong to steal or murder. Some choose to do it anyway, but they know it is wrong. Innate moral knowledge isn't something explainable by evolution or survival of the fittest. It isn't something that would evolve, and even if it did, it would have been killed off by people without it.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 4:13 pm to Kentucker
quote:
I think Christians would be much happier, less conflicted and easier to get along with if they'd just drop the Old Testament and adhere to Jesus' teachings.
No one can truly follow Old Testament law. It was God showing us that we are incapable of earning or deserving our way into heaven. The religious people who make others miserable with their "if you do this or that you are going to hell" rants are pushing people away from God. Like you say, Jesus' teachings are the way.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 4:31 pm to Kentucker
quote:
If not for the New Testament, Christians might rival Muslims as the craziest theists on earth.
Ok, I laughed.
Thank God for the NT, then!
I've enjoyed it, Tuck. Of course, I think you're wrong about everything. My prayer is that one day Jesus will knock on the door of your heart, and that you'll answer.
I didn't think I could have this discussion with someone who is areligious, without someone being offended. You seem like a decent person. Maybe we can pick it back up in another thread down the road.
Until then, Peace!
Posted on 9/26/17 at 4:49 pm to Kentucker
I think not believing in God is being "illogical".
Since no one really knows if God exist or not, logic would tell you to hedge your bet. If God doesn't exist, then at death you've lost nothing. If God does exist and you've lived the way you describe???
Since no one really knows if God exist or not, logic would tell you to hedge your bet. If God doesn't exist, then at death you've lost nothing. If God does exist and you've lived the way you describe???
Posted on 9/26/17 at 5:31 pm to PurpleandGeauld
Look at Romans 1:19-20. God's general revelation to all men.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 5:46 pm to RTRinTampa
Don't think it works that way. Belief in God isn't about having fire insurance.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 5:59 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
Of course, I think you're wrong about everything
Well, wrong is an absolute so I'll just say we differ in our outlooks, since there no absolutes in science.
quote:
My prayer is that one day Jesus will knock on the door of your heart, and that you'll answer.
And it's my hope that you'll one day be able to view nature without the filters of religion and philosophy. It's breathtaking.
quote:
I didn't think I could have this discussion with someone who is areligious, without someone being offended. You seem like a decent person.
Gosh, thanks. The vast majority of people are decent. It's only the rabble rousers who get the most attention.
Posted on 9/26/17 at 6:42 pm to Kentucker
quote:you do know that ucd is an assertion, right? it has been in no way, shape or form empirically verified by science. it's completely and purely speculative. there are some signs that it might be the case but, it is definitely not without major, major problems. are you even aware of the objections to ucd?
Without any explanation, this amounts to an assertion. Assertions only take up space.
quote:i've done no such thing at any point. i understand what science is and what it's limitations are. you are pretending it's something that it's not.
You seem to consistently discount scientific research.
quote:you do realize that the more that research is conducted, the more it proves the impossibility of abiogenesis, right? there's absolutely no way to PROVE that life can come from lifelessness. even if we observed life to start, there's no guarantee that there were NO facilitating influences involved. the reason why we can't know that is because it is impossible to know anything empirical beyond this existence. any abiogenesis experiments only serve to further substantiate that fact, i.e. humans are influencing the experiments.
the direction that abiogenesis research is taking
quote:what would be proof to you?
Yet you don't offer any
Posted on 9/26/17 at 6:53 pm to Kentucker
quote:given that christianity has been been the largest religion in the history of the world, that isn't saying much. of course, you would have to have demographic, proportionate statistical evidence to back up your claim, which i'm pretty sure you don't have. moreover, i would be willing to bet that islam can challenge christianity in this regard. which leads me to my next point...
No group of people has sacrificed more people in the name of religion.
quote:when christians have done this, it has OBVIOUSLY been contrary to christian ideals/doctrine. well, obvious to any rational person who doesn't have an agenda. when islam has done this, it has been a logical outworking of those beliefs. big, huge difference. but don't let that subtlety stop you from your pathetic agenda.
No group has destroyed more hospitals, schools, etc. in the name of God.
quote:did scientists create the bomb for destructive purposes? yes. so, yes, i'm serious.
You're not serious,
quote:no it is not and you have been corrected on this false view. science is the HUMAN ENDEAVOR to understand nature. that endeavor is most certainly susceptible to human vagaries.
Science is nature
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