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re: Fire Haith
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:36 am to the808bass
Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:36 am to the808bass
There is no true inside presence with Alex gone. Rosberg is not cutting it.
They let Georgia dictate the flow of the game also. Now adjustments. Clarkson is a good player, but whats also made Mizzou dangerous the last few seasons was speed. Clarkson is talented, but not fast. It's what made Pressy and Dixon so good. Thier speed.
They let Georgia dictate the flow of the game also. Now adjustments. Clarkson is a good player, but whats also made Mizzou dangerous the last few seasons was speed. Clarkson is talented, but not fast. It's what made Pressy and Dixon so good. Thier speed.
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Posted on 1/9/14 at 11:43 am to notsince98
quote:
notsince98
You're welcome to disagree with me, obviously. But I don't think what I said is dumb. Ernie Nestor was the Xs and Os coach that made us so good in Haith's first season. If you watched the sidelines that year, Nestor was the one with the board, drawing up plays and providing the in-game coaching. Haith was too, but Nestor was the strength there. They ran him off. Right now, we have some strong recruiters on staff. But I don't see the strategy and solid in-game coaching we had 2 years ago. The coaches may have the ability, but the results don't show it. Yet. The team is undisciplined, they lack energy and sometimes just look lost. Good players individually, but not as a team right now. We don't have a lack of talent, so that's on the coaches. IMO, of course.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 11:44 am
Posted on 1/9/14 at 12:54 pm to semotruman
The Nestor thing has at least some substance to in that he was a good tactician by all accounts, and he would stay with the team and help them study upcoming opponents while the other coaches were out recruiting. If Kimmie says Nestor was one of the greatest basketball minds he'd ever been around, which he did, I believe him.
However, there are also some things about our team personnel the past few years beyond just new faces that are different from 2012 that are important to note when making this comparison. One of the things that made the 2012 team so very effective was Kimmie acting as a "stretch four" power forward who would punish opposing defenses who clogged the lane. That may have just been something endemic to our offense, Nestor or no, that worked way better with Kimmie than what we have now. I can think of multiple times last night when, amidst seemingly stagnant ball movement, Tony Criswell popped out to the perimeter and much to all our chagrin, chucked one. He did make a three, but its not optimal in terms of shot selection - but he sure was WIDE OPEN and is given the ability to get wide open in our offensive structure. With Kimmie, that was deadly, and it in turn unclogged the lane giving Pressey and others more room to attack the basket which they did.
I could go on but it would quickly get into TLDR range, you catch my drift though. I think there are a lot of aspects to this year's and last year's teams that just would be tougher pieces to fit together even if Nestor was still here. Do I think the overall product would be improved with Nestor around doing what he did in 2012? Yes, most likely, but we do have like three current or former head coaches on our sideline now so they should be fairly able to compensate for the loss of just one guy. To the extent that Nestor spending extra teaching and prep time with the 2012 team rather than going out on the road recruiting gave the 2012 team an edge, you have to also ask which recruits we have on this current roster would not be here without the full fledged recruiting efforts that were made possible by Nestor leaving. Jabari and Ross would be here, but would Clarkson? JW3? Clark? Who knows.
However, there are also some things about our team personnel the past few years beyond just new faces that are different from 2012 that are important to note when making this comparison. One of the things that made the 2012 team so very effective was Kimmie acting as a "stretch four" power forward who would punish opposing defenses who clogged the lane. That may have just been something endemic to our offense, Nestor or no, that worked way better with Kimmie than what we have now. I can think of multiple times last night when, amidst seemingly stagnant ball movement, Tony Criswell popped out to the perimeter and much to all our chagrin, chucked one. He did make a three, but its not optimal in terms of shot selection - but he sure was WIDE OPEN and is given the ability to get wide open in our offensive structure. With Kimmie, that was deadly, and it in turn unclogged the lane giving Pressey and others more room to attack the basket which they did.
I could go on but it would quickly get into TLDR range, you catch my drift though. I think there are a lot of aspects to this year's and last year's teams that just would be tougher pieces to fit together even if Nestor was still here. Do I think the overall product would be improved with Nestor around doing what he did in 2012? Yes, most likely, but we do have like three current or former head coaches on our sideline now so they should be fairly able to compensate for the loss of just one guy. To the extent that Nestor spending extra teaching and prep time with the 2012 team rather than going out on the road recruiting gave the 2012 team an edge, you have to also ask which recruits we have on this current roster would not be here without the full fledged recruiting efforts that were made possible by Nestor leaving. Jabari and Ross would be here, but would Clarkson? JW3? Clark? Who knows.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 1:02 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 2:57 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Great points, ATX. Great points. 
Posted on 1/9/14 at 3:26 pm to semotruman
I keep going back 2 seasons to a game Bobby Knight helped call. Phil Pressey took a quick pass, stood there dribbling 4x and then chucked up a 3. Knight professed Pressey would never have played for his teams. If the shot wasn't there when you got the ball, it wasn't there after 4 bounces. Not smart basketball.
Haith called a timeout that game to call a play late. Players come back on the court, they inbound to a player, he dribbles 2x and chucks a 3. Knight asks "you needed a timeout to call that play?"
IMO, it sums up the Haith offense. The SLU offense is 10x better with 1/5th the talent.
Haith's contract runs through April 2016. We've got him for 2 more seasons after this one.
Haith called a timeout that game to call a play late. Players come back on the court, they inbound to a player, he dribbles 2x and chucks a 3. Knight asks "you needed a timeout to call that play?"
IMO, it sums up the Haith offense. The SLU offense is 10x better with 1/5th the talent.
Haith's contract runs through April 2016. We've got him for 2 more seasons after this one.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 4:09 pm to ZouTigers
This sort of reasoning would have been a reason to fire Pinkel after Troy, much less New Mexico. I'm glad we stuck that one out to see what happened with Pinkel after those games.
This was a bad bad loss. It was also one game. I judge by seasons not by individual games, and I really really want to see how these coaches and players will respond now after this loss.
You all may not agree with it, but the baseline employment criteria for Mizzou men's basketball coaches seems to be this: make the NCAA tournament each year, and your job is secure. Miss it for 1 year, there better be a damn good reason for it. Miss it for 2 years, your arse is probably gone. As of right now, Haith has yet to miss the Dance. Will he miss it this year? I don't know, but I want to find out before I even remotely start touching on replacement talk.
Norm seems to like Haith. That's big to me. And ZouTigers its funny you base so much on Bobby Knight since I vividly remember Knight being very complimentary of the coaching job Haith did during his broadcasts of us in 2012. I'm not saying we should all commit 100% to him, but I'm saying one loss is way too early and too much of a knee jerk to decide just yet.
This was a bad bad loss. It was also one game. I judge by seasons not by individual games, and I really really want to see how these coaches and players will respond now after this loss.
You all may not agree with it, but the baseline employment criteria for Mizzou men's basketball coaches seems to be this: make the NCAA tournament each year, and your job is secure. Miss it for 1 year, there better be a damn good reason for it. Miss it for 2 years, your arse is probably gone. As of right now, Haith has yet to miss the Dance. Will he miss it this year? I don't know, but I want to find out before I even remotely start touching on replacement talk.
Norm seems to like Haith. That's big to me. And ZouTigers its funny you base so much on Bobby Knight since I vividly remember Knight being very complimentary of the coaching job Haith did during his broadcasts of us in 2012. I'm not saying we should all commit 100% to him, but I'm saying one loss is way too early and too much of a knee jerk to decide just yet.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:09 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
The difference I see between Pinkel and Haith is that Pinkel had an established record of decent success at his previous job. Frank Haith was going to be fired when we hired him. Franks resume is poor.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:16 pm to KCM0Tiger
quote:
The difference I see between Pinkel and Haith is that Pinkel had an established record of decent success at his previous job. Frank Haith was going to be fired when we hired him. Franks resume is poor.
LOL wut? He coached at Toledo. He went to bowl games...in the MAC. That sounds a lot like making the NIT which is what Haith did a lot of at Miami, along with an NCAA tournament or two.
Its also interesting that you would gloss over the minor detail of Haith going 30-5 in his first year on the job at Mizzou. Its hard to make a fair comparison with Pinkel since he inherited a program in much worse shape, but then again, you aren't giving Haith any leeway for the terrible program he inherited at Miami either, so what the hell: Pinkel never came close to approaching a winning percentage as high as Haith's first year at Mizzou until Pinkel was a good seven years into his tenure in 2007.
Honestly I don't care what a coach's resume was before coming to Mizzou once they are hired. If they get results here, keep 'em; if not, show 'em the door. It just depends how you define results, and how knee jerk you want to be about pointing them toward that door.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:31 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
He coached at Toledo. He went to bowl games...in the MAC. That sounds a lot like making the NIT which is what Haith did a lot of at Miami
This is a poor comparison. Making a bowl game is indicative of success. He won 3 division titles and a conference title including an undefeated season while he was there.
On the other hand, missing the NCAA tourney is a failure. Haith missed the tournament 6 out of his 7 years at Miami.
quote:
Haith going 30-5 in his first year on the job at Mizzou.
Sure. Good job to him. He had an amazing set of seniors who led that team as well as Ernie Nestor on his staff making things work. However, how many of those 30 wins came in the NCAA tournament? None. In fact, what could have been our best team ever suffered our worst tournament loss ever.
quote:
Its hard to make a fair comparison with Pinkel since he inherited a program in much worse shape, but then again, you aren't giving Haith any leeway for the terrible program he inherited at Miami either
Pinkel's teams improved in each of his first 3 years.
Haith's teams are DIGRESSING in each of his first three years.
Which is funny, because, Pinkel inherited a crap program and made it better. Haith inherited something respectable and is making it worse.
I understand the idea of not making knee-jerk reactions. I do; I get it. My problem is, he never should've been hired in the first place. It was a baffling choice, and I see nothing to prove that he's going to lead us to anything beyond a few early round exits in the NCAA tourney. But again, that's just my opinion. I respect the opinion of those who think Haith can make this program better.
This post was edited on 1/9/14 at 5:35 pm
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:32 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
The problem this year, in a nutshell, is if you stop Clarkson, you stop Mizzou. You've got to have more playmakers. Only one that comes even close is Jabari, and he is inconsistent.
Posted on 1/9/14 at 5:34 pm to KCM0Tiger
quote:
Pinkel's teams improved in each of his first 3 years.
Haith's teams are DIGRESSING in each of his first three years.
This.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 12:00 pm to Mizzou4ever
Good thing we are a football school. Amirite? 
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:15 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
However, there are also some things about our team personnel the past few years beyond just new faces that are different from 2012 that are important to note when making this comparison. One of the things that made the 2012 team so very effective was Kimmie acting as a "stretch four" power forward who would punish opposing defenses who clogged the lane. That may have just been something endemic to our offense, Nestor or no, that worked way better with Kimmie than what we have now. I can think of multiple times last night when, amidst seemingly stagnant ball movement, Tony Criswell popped out to the perimeter and much to all our chagrin, chucked one. He did make a three, but its not optimal in terms of shot selection - but he sure was WIDE OPEN and is given the ability to get wide open in our offensive structure. With Kimmie, that was deadly, and it in turn unclogged the lane giving Pressey and others more room to attack the basket which they did.
Ross at the stretch four, with Clark at point, Clarkson and Brown on the wings. Ross rebounds better than Criswell anyways. We just don't have a big inside presence though with either JW3 or Rosburg manning the middle.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:19 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
This was a bad bad loss. It was also one game. I judge by seasons not by individual games, and I really really want to see how these coaches and players will respond now after this loss.
It's been the season though ATX. We limped to wins over teams we should blow out. It just so happens that the teams in conference, even if bad, have a pulse. My worries about making any post season stems from the season to date. It just happens to be capped off with one of the worst losses I can remember in a long time. None of that is calling for Haith's head...yet. Just that my expectations for this team are probably as low as they've been since, well I can't recall off hand.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 2:22 pm to Mizzou4ever
quote:
Only one that comes even close is Jabari,
I don't think Jabari's strength is creating opportunities for himself. If he's open, he can shoot the lights out of the ball. He really looks to struggle when trying to get to the rim, though not as much as Ross. But I wouldn't even call Brown a playmaker. I'd call him a play finisher though.
Posted on 1/10/14 at 8:55 pm to the808bass
quote:
Fire Haith
This OP reminds me of several Fire Pinkel posts started last year at this time.
the soap opera continues....
Posted on 1/10/14 at 11:51 pm to 50CalMG
quote:
This OP reminds me of several Fire Pinkel posts started last year at this time.
Yeah. It was a heavily reactionary post to a poor performance. But I'm not encouraged by the last 14 months of Mizzou basketball.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 12:31 am to the808bass
quote:
But I'm not encouraged by the last 14 months of Mizzou basketball.
Me neither, but willing to give him more time. Man, I just want to atleast make a Final 4 in my lifetime.
Posted on 1/11/14 at 11:26 am to Mizzou4ever
quote:
Me neither, but willing to give him more time.
Oh, I'm willing to give him more time. Though every time I talk to Alden.... Wait Nevermind I never talk to Alden.
It will be frustrating if we are looking at the same product the next 3 years.
Posted on 1/14/14 at 1:34 am to the808bass
Look at the situation Haith took over. Suitcase left him with 0 incoming recruits and 5 seniors. (Bowers blows out his knee) bringing in transfers helps him to field a competitive team last year but Dixon his probable leading scorer never plays a game. This years team has struggled to a respectable 13-2 record with a bunch of first year and second year players. The first round exits in the tourney hurts but English and Denmon both played with injuries they sustained in the big12 tourney. Last years team didn't improve as the season progressed. Once again losing Dixon was a huge blow last season. Hopefully this years team makes the tourney. In my book Haith has done a hell of a job considering the circumstances. Look at suitcase. Arky hasn't even made the NIT in his first two seasons. Be carefull what you wish for.
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