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Posted on 7/30/20 at 12:46 pm to Robot Santa
The reason people will always "see what they want to see" with HCQ is that:
If it must be administered at the precise point in infection in which 95-98% or more patients showing symptoms recover regardless of treatment, the "margin of error" in any study is simply off the charts.
That means even studies of 500 people would only be looking for differences in 10 people (20 at the most)?
The chance that you as a doctor/researcher may have 10 or 15 of those with another factor which heightens the danger of Covid whereas another researcher may have only 3 or 4 in their group would seem more the rule than exception.
We don't even have a grasp on all the reasons some people fight this, up and down, for 6 weeks whereas others just get over it in 2 days to consider those in the studies.
Many doctors have dealt with 200 Covid hospitalizations and have had 198 patients survive, regardless of treatment.
"Observationally" all those doctors can easily observe that whatever they did worked better...
On the other hand, many other doctors have observed 15 of 200 patients die with the exact same treatment as the doctor above simply due to a different draw of the 200 infected.
Here in the US, politics distorts the picture even more with this specific drug. For that reason, if I'm trying to get the most objective picture, I'd mainly look to other first world countries about this specific drug where politics only plays a normal instead of hyper-driven role.
Seems that even without the overzealous politics in those places, "maybe it does a little something - maybe it does nothing" isn't really a question that has much of a definitive answer.
Certainly not worth the amount of hoopla it engenders here in either direction.
At least until further research may define specifically that it "works like a charm in patients with existing T cells from a previous coronavirus common cold who do not have hypertension if administered before the onset of high fever but does not work well in others".
If it must be administered at the precise point in infection in which 95-98% or more patients showing symptoms recover regardless of treatment, the "margin of error" in any study is simply off the charts.
That means even studies of 500 people would only be looking for differences in 10 people (20 at the most)?
The chance that you as a doctor/researcher may have 10 or 15 of those with another factor which heightens the danger of Covid whereas another researcher may have only 3 or 4 in their group would seem more the rule than exception.
We don't even have a grasp on all the reasons some people fight this, up and down, for 6 weeks whereas others just get over it in 2 days to consider those in the studies.
Many doctors have dealt with 200 Covid hospitalizations and have had 198 patients survive, regardless of treatment.
"Observationally" all those doctors can easily observe that whatever they did worked better...
On the other hand, many other doctors have observed 15 of 200 patients die with the exact same treatment as the doctor above simply due to a different draw of the 200 infected.
Here in the US, politics distorts the picture even more with this specific drug. For that reason, if I'm trying to get the most objective picture, I'd mainly look to other first world countries about this specific drug where politics only plays a normal instead of hyper-driven role.
Seems that even without the overzealous politics in those places, "maybe it does a little something - maybe it does nothing" isn't really a question that has much of a definitive answer.
Certainly not worth the amount of hoopla it engenders here in either direction.
At least until further research may define specifically that it "works like a charm in patients with existing T cells from a previous coronavirus common cold who do not have hypertension if administered before the onset of high fever but does not work well in others".
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 1:39 pm
Posted on 7/30/20 at 1:33 pm to wm72
Just saw where Ohio banned HCQ as a treatment yesterday .... shite is so political
Posted on 7/30/20 at 2:03 pm to Bear88
This may be a dumb question but can’t they just look at how many Lupus patients have been hospitalized because of Covid to see if it works?
Posted on 7/30/20 at 2:12 pm to Bear88
Update
quote:
Louie Tran
@louie_tran
NBC Columbus reports:
OHIIO: “The Ohio Board of Pharmacy has withdrawn their ruling banning the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 after Governor Mike DeWine requested they reconsider their decision.”
Posted on 7/30/20 at 2:16 pm to Bobby OG Johnson
Posted on 7/30/20 at 3:21 pm to mistaken4193
quote:
This may be a dumb question but can’t they just look at how many Lupus patients have been hospitalized because of Covid to see if it works?
I thought this was an interesting question.
According to this article, from specialists at Johns Hopkins and UCLA, the database for Lupus shows no difference in Covid 19 outcomes for Lupus patients whether they were taking HCL or not.
Speculation from the second doctor in the linked article is that, if HCL were to work at all, dosage would need to be higher than Lupus patients are normally prescribed (which is where concerns about the safety of uncommonly higher doses arises).
quote:
Patients with systemic lupus erythematosus who received hydroxychloroquine were just as likely to develop severe COVID-19 as those who were not treated with antimalarials, according to data from the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance registry.
"The use of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) in the prophylaxis and treatment of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) has received significant attention by politicians and media figures," Maximilian F. Konig, MD, of the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and colleagues wrote in a letter published in Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases. “This has occurred despite limited data supporting its efficacy in COVID-19 as well as considerable concern about its safety when used at high doses (>400mg daily) and in combination with other QT interval prolonging drugs.”
“An inaccurate narrative has emerged in recent weeks that patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) who are taking HCQ as a baseline therapy are less affected by or do not develop COVID-19,” they added. “This assumption has been challenged by Monti and Montecucco, referencing data from the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance registry on patients with rheumatic disease that previously identified 19/110 (17%) patients with SLE.”
June 15, 2020
https://www.healio.com/news/rheumatology/20200612/hydroxychloroquine-fails-to-prevent-covid19-in-patients-with-lupus
This post was edited on 7/31/20 at 1:02 am
Posted on 7/30/20 at 4:00 pm to mistaken4193
Here is a paper put out by the CDC on hydroxycholoroquine for treatment of malaria. LINK
Why would a medicene that the CDC says is safe for pregnant women, nursing women and children, but now it causes heart problems.
If I were a parent of one of those children that were prescribed this drug, I would sue the hell out of them.
Why would a medicene that the CDC says is safe for pregnant women, nursing women and children, but now it causes heart problems.
If I were a parent of one of those children that were prescribed this drug, I would sue the hell out of them.
Posted on 7/30/20 at 4:05 pm to jatebe
Got a cousin diagnosed yesterday . GREAT health , 42, has leg aches , high fever, can barely walk and today has severe diarrhea .... I don’t want this shite but would like to be able to TRY HCQ if need be 
They Live in Nashville but had just gotten back from Florida
They Live in Nashville but had just gotten back from Florida
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 7/30/20 at 5:14 pm to jatebe
quote:
Why would a medicine that the CDC says is safe for pregnant women, nursing women and children, but now it causes heart problems.
Is it that the main safety concern with HCL and Covid treatment centers on
1) the dosage being higher/longer term than when prescribed for malaria/Lupus
2) and that Covid already causes circulatory / heart problems in severe cases?
In the Lupus article I posted above, specialists note that the regular dosage for Lupus patients is significantly lower than the one used in purportedly successful Covid trials.
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 6:22 pm
Posted on 7/30/20 at 6:56 pm to wm72
How's that R0 rate looking in Alabama today?
Posted on 7/30/20 at 7:13 pm to phil4bama
Looks like it was 1.15 at 12:32 PM.
Posted on 7/30/20 at 7:40 pm to TideSaint
Posted on 7/30/20 at 7:48 pm to phil4bama
Texas, Florida and Arizona are all under 0.93 today. Like you said, we are testing a shite load of people this week. It'll go down.
Posted on 7/30/20 at 9:00 pm to TideSaint
Current hospitalizations seem to be stabilizing or slowly falling in a lot of places too - Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Texas, California.
New cases falling, Hospitalizations stabilizing, deaths rising. Seems to paint a picture that maybe we are 2-3 weeks away from having the hot spots under control again based on the lag from those 3 indicators. That'd be great news.
New cases falling, Hospitalizations stabilizing, deaths rising. Seems to paint a picture that maybe we are 2-3 weeks away from having the hot spots under control again based on the lag from those 3 indicators. That'd be great news.
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 9:02 pm
Posted on 7/30/20 at 9:11 pm to phil4bama
Bamatracker says we are at 0.93. The first time we have been in the Green since early May. Definitely encouraging and IMO shows Mask work
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 9:12 pm
Posted on 7/30/20 at 9:29 pm to mistaken4193
Bama tracker does once a week updates. There are some sites that do daily ones. We reported a pretty high number of cases today. If that trend holds, Bama tracker will go up next week. If it doesn’t the other will come down. It is the trend that matters.
Posted on 7/30/20 at 9:33 pm to JustGetItRight
What’s the best site to use?
Nvm, I see the links in the OP
Nvm, I see the links in the OP
This post was edited on 7/30/20 at 9:36 pm
Posted on 7/31/20 at 8:49 am to mistaken4193
Merck announced today they will begin Phase III trials in September on a promising oral antiviral that has done well against Covid in Phase I and II trials. There will be a large 2 pronged Phase III trial with an outpatient arm and a hospitalized arm. The treatment is a 5 day oral therapy similar to Tamiflu.
Posted on 7/31/20 at 8:56 am to phil4bama
I think Moderna just began their phase III trials the other day. Hopefully one (or more) of them work and are ready for distribution by February or March.
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