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2020 Alabama
Posted on 7/22/23 at 11:03 am
Posted on 7/22/23 at 11:03 am
How would you make the case of 2020 Alabama being the GOAT (if you believe it is) vs. 1995 Nebraska, 2001 Miami, and 2019 LSU?
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Posted on 7/22/23 at 11:32 am to Globetrotter747
/thread
Posted on 7/22/23 at 11:45 am to Globetrotter747
Over 2019 LSU I can absolutely make that argument but that’s because I start from the standpoint that I don’t think either one of those teams could be 2011 version of LSU or Alabama. 2019 LdU and 2020 Alabama defenses were not very good. They were serviceable but by no means are either of those defenses close to their normal standard. Both got better as year went on.
Posted on 7/22/23 at 12:12 pm to Globetrotter747
It doesn’t really matter. It is all subjective and can’t be proven one way or the other.
The only reason to bring it up is to get the LSU fans mad and boy do they get spun up.
The only reason to bring it up is to get the LSU fans mad and boy do they get spun up.
Posted on 7/22/23 at 12:15 pm to TizzyT4theUofA
quote:
It is all subjective and can’t be proven one way or the other.
Yeah and the differences between the teams aren't so drastic you can say definitively which one is better
Posted on 7/22/23 at 12:56 pm to Globetrotter747
It’s pretty simple honestly. Have had this convo almost every year since like 2015.
With the advancements in S&C as well as the overall evolution of the game, teams like 2001 Miami and 1995 Nebraska would simply be overwhelmed by most elite teams from the past decade or so. With a team like 2020 Bama, our defense would’ve been just fine against Miami’s traditional pro-style approach and a run-heavy attack behind a Nebraska OL that averaged just 6’3 - 290lb.
Like most modern defenses in 2020 were, both teams would likely be unable to keep Bama from scoring at will. I don’t care what your secondary did after they graduated college, nobody was locking down the tandem of Smith and Waddle while simultaneously bottling up Harris.
Miami proponents typically point to the success of that team AFTER they made it to the NFL. This is terrible logic. Your success at 25 is not proof of how good you were at 19.
Miami would’ve likely faired similar to how Ohio St did.
Nebraska would’ve been mauled from start to finish.
When it comes to other modern teams like 2019 LSU, you’re splitting hairs tbh.
With the advancements in S&C as well as the overall evolution of the game, teams like 2001 Miami and 1995 Nebraska would simply be overwhelmed by most elite teams from the past decade or so. With a team like 2020 Bama, our defense would’ve been just fine against Miami’s traditional pro-style approach and a run-heavy attack behind a Nebraska OL that averaged just 6’3 - 290lb.
Like most modern defenses in 2020 were, both teams would likely be unable to keep Bama from scoring at will. I don’t care what your secondary did after they graduated college, nobody was locking down the tandem of Smith and Waddle while simultaneously bottling up Harris.
Miami proponents typically point to the success of that team AFTER they made it to the NFL. This is terrible logic. Your success at 25 is not proof of how good you were at 19.
Miami would’ve likely faired similar to how Ohio St did.
Nebraska would’ve been mauled from start to finish.
When it comes to other modern teams like 2019 LSU, you’re splitting hairs tbh.
This post was edited on 7/22/23 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 7/22/23 at 1:02 pm to HighTide_ATL
quote:
With the advancements in S&C as well as the overall evolution of the game, teams like 2001 Miami and 1995 Nebraska would simply be overwhelmed by most elite teams from the past decade or so.
I meant comparing teams relative to their era
Posted on 7/22/23 at 2:10 pm to HighTide_ATL
quote:
Oh that’s futile af
It’s fun, though.
Posted on 7/22/23 at 8:55 pm to labamafan
quote:
2019 LdU and 2020 Alabama defenses were not very good. They were serviceable but by no means are either of those defenses close to their normal standard.
Just rewatched the 2020 SEC championship game. Our defense just got absolutely lit up by Trask and Florida. It was sickening to watch. We were one late touchdown away from losing that game. Florida only ended up losing by 6. Offenses with Tua, Mac and Bryce were amazing. Defenses with the exception 2018 were pretty much garbage.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 9:47 am to Globetrotter747
The following ranking systems below have 2020 Alabama either the GOAT, ahead of the teams you mentioned, or the best team since that particular ranking system has been in place, so that'd be a good place to start:
Bill Connelly SP+
Brad Powers CFB Vegas Power Ratings
SRS Rating System
ESPN FPI Top Teams (since its origin in 2005):
2020 Alabama (35.9)
2005 Texas (33.6)
2008 Florida (33.4)
2013 Florida State (33.2)
Brad Edwards book, Dynasty By The Numbers, not only has stats that posits that 2008-2020 Alabama is the greatest dynasty of all time (a pretty well accepted point), the latter part of the book has statistics on the 2020 team that could back an argument that they were the GOAT. As much as folk bag on the defense that year, they were still ranked #7 in the nation in defensive efficiency and led the SEC in PPG allowed...
Personally, the best I've ever seen is the '95 Nebraska team. They won every game by at least 2 TDs, only trailed once in a game and never in the second half, and destroyed a very good Florida team in the BCSCG that dominated the SEC. A close second would be the '71 Nebraska team, the only team in the poll era to defeat the #2, #3, and #4 teams in the final AP poll. Shows you how far Nebraska has fallen...
Bill Connelly SP+
Brad Powers CFB Vegas Power Ratings
SRS Rating System
ESPN FPI Top Teams (since its origin in 2005):
2020 Alabama (35.9)
2005 Texas (33.6)
2008 Florida (33.4)
2013 Florida State (33.2)
Brad Edwards book, Dynasty By The Numbers, not only has stats that posits that 2008-2020 Alabama is the greatest dynasty of all time (a pretty well accepted point), the latter part of the book has statistics on the 2020 team that could back an argument that they were the GOAT. As much as folk bag on the defense that year, they were still ranked #7 in the nation in defensive efficiency and led the SEC in PPG allowed...
Personally, the best I've ever seen is the '95 Nebraska team. They won every game by at least 2 TDs, only trailed once in a game and never in the second half, and destroyed a very good Florida team in the BCSCG that dominated the SEC. A close second would be the '71 Nebraska team, the only team in the poll era to defeat the #2, #3, and #4 teams in the final AP poll. Shows you how far Nebraska has fallen...
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 9:50 am
Posted on 7/24/23 at 1:35 pm to OldPete
quote:
Personally, the best I've ever seen is the '95 Nebraska team. They won every game by at least 2 TDs, only trailed once in a game and never in the second half, and destroyed a very good Florida team in the BCSCG that dominated the SEC.
The biggest difference between 1995 Nebraska and some of Osborne’s other teams is they did not play a great defensive team that could trouble their running game.
Throughout most of the 1970s and 1980s Nebraska always had to contend with prime Oklahoma and players like the Selmon bros., Brian Bosworth, Tony Casillas, Dante Jones, etc. They also had some good OOC opponents here and there like 1977-78 Alabama and 1991-1992 Washington. They struggled to beat these teams.
1995 Nebraska faced nothing like that in the regular season. They coasted through the season beating up on the same ole Kansas and Kansas State teams (Osborne was a combined 50-0 against both teams) and played no one OOC that won more than six games. Even Colorado had lost Bill McCartney, Kordell Stewart, Rashan Salaam, Michael Westbrook.
Several of Osborne’s teams could have gone undefeated with the 1995 team’s schedule.
As for the Fiesta Bowl, again, it’s elite defensive play that troubled Nebraska. 1995 Florida was good but they were not physically tough. Not even close to the defensive fronts of FSU and Miami teams that beat Nebraska all the time in bowl games.
Matchups matter and Nebraska’s 1995 slate favored them more than maybe any year of the Osborne tenure.
I would like to see an I formation team with no draftable receiving talent, no elite passer, and an NFL bust/major head case at TB line up and run over an elite defense with multiple first round draft picks.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 4:18 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
The biggest difference between 1995 Nebraska and some of Osborne’s other teams is they did not play a great defensive team that could trouble their running game.
They played 4 of the top 25 rushing defensive teams (#9 Oklahoma, #15 Kansas State, #24 Washington State, & #25 Florida) and ran over 'em all. Three of those teams also finished in top 20 total defensive teams (#1 Kansas State, #15 Oklahoma, #20 Florida).
quote:
They coasted through the season beating up on the same ole Kansas and Kansas State teams
Kansas State won 10 games, finished with the top total defense in the nation, and a final AP ranking at #7. Kansas won 10 games and finished with a final AP ranking at #9. Not to mention Colorado also won 10 games and finished #5. The Big 8 was the best conference in football in 1995 finishing the season with 4 teams in the top 10; doesn't sound like the same ole Kansas & Kansas State to me.
quote:
1995 Florida was good but they were not physically tough.
Florida dominated the SEC that year; they beat every SEC team they played by double digits so the SEC must not've been physically tough either. Nebraska toyed with them in the Fiesta Bowl, winning by 38.
quote:
Not even close to the defensive fronts of FSU and Miami teams that beat Nebraska all the time in bowl games.
They actually beat Miami the previous year in the '95 Orange Bowl for the '94 National Championship. And they lost a nailbiter to FSU the year before that in the '94 Orange Bowl as their FG kicker missed a 40-yard FG on the last play of the game or they'd have ended up winning 3 straight natties...
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 4:20 pm
Posted on 7/24/23 at 6:05 pm to OldPete
quote:
They played 4 of the top 25 rushing defensive teams (#9 Oklahoma, #15 Kansas State, #24 Washington State, & #25 Florida) and ran over 'em all. Three of those teams also finished in top 20 total defensive teams (#1 Kansas State, #15 Oklahoma, #20 Florida).
Would you put any of these teams in league with OU during the wishbone era with teams full of All-Americans and Hall of Famers?
quote:
The Big 8 was the best conference in football in 1995 finishing the season with 4 teams in the top 10; doesn't sound like the same ole Kansas & Kansas State to me.
It is when they only play each other.
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Florida dominated the SEC that year; they beat every SEC team they played by double digits so the SEC must not've been physically tough either.
Florida threw the ball in 1995 and was not physically dominant. They had a young team and nothing better than a 3rd rounder on D in the next three drafts.
1995 Nebraska and its entire schedule (including Florida) put just two first rounders in the NFL draft that spring - and they were both busts. SEC champions of recent times are putting as many as 5-6 players in the first round and most of them have become quality NFL players.
UGA has had like 7 first rounders on D in the last two drafts, including behemoths like Jordan Davis. They also have a great defensive coach. Good luck lining up in the I formation with no vertical threats and running over their arse.
quote:
They actually beat Miami the previous year in the '95 Orange Bowl for the '94 National Championship. And they lost a nailbiter to FSU the year before that in the '94 Orange Bowl as their FG kicker missed a 40-yard FG on the last play of the game or they'd have ended up winning 3 straight natties...
And they were good games, weren’t they? It’s a little harder to score 62 pts. on Derrick Brooks, Ray Lewis, Warren Sapp, and coaches like Mickey Andrews who were familiar with the Nebraska O.
Nebraska also had a more talented offense in 1994 than 1995. They had Weigert, Stai, and Zatechka up front. They had Orange Bowl hero Schlesinger at FB. Same QB’s and TB.
But unlike the 1995 team, they actually played somebody with a decent defense.
Switzer, Miami, and FSU were Osborne’s bullies because they had great defensive fronts. The 1995 team did not face that caliber of run defense.
They also did not face NFL caliber skill players. Wuerffel, Hilliard, and Anthony were good but they weren’t anything like what LSU, Bama, and Clemson have had at their peak in the last five years or so.
The I formation isn’t a magical offense. One reason Les Miles is no longer with us was because he kept trying to run over extremely physical Bama defenses.
2011 LSU ran out the stadium on everyone else but couldn’t score a TD in 8 quarters and OT against the one team that could match them physically. The prime OU, FSU, and Miami teams could match Nebraska physically. That’s why they beat them nearly every time.
They simply did not play a D like that in 1995, so they ran through everyone.
Posted on 7/25/23 at 10:56 am to Globetrotter747
quote:
It is when they only play each other.
Of their top teams, that applied only to K-State that year. Including Florida in the BCSCG, Nebraska beat 4 OOC Power Conference teams. #5 Colorado beat 3 ranked OOC Power Conference teams. #9 Kansas beat 2 OOC Power Conference teams.
quote:
Nebraska also had a more talented offense in 1994 than 1995. They had Weigert, Stai, and Zatechka up front. They had Orange Bowl hero Schlesinger at FB.
The 1995 Nebraska offense was better and it's not even close; Tommy Frazier played the whole year in '95, they averaged 16 more points/game and averaged 80 more yards/game. In '94, Frazier was out for most of the season with a blood clot. Miami was leading 17-9 in the 4th quarter when Frazier came in at QB and led two late touchdown drives against Miami's touted D (which included Ray Lewis & Warren Sapp) that couldn't stop the option. Frazier was a co-MVP of that Orange Bowl even though he played for only a quarter or so...
quote:
Same QB’s and TB.
Not really. Frazier's last regular season game in '94 was in late September, Berringer was QB for the rest of it, till the Orange Bowl where they sorta split it; in '95, Frazier was the undisputed starter. Also, Lawrence Phillips was the primary I-back in '94 but in '95 Ahman Green (a freshman) had more carries and rushing yards than Phillips...
quote:
Switzer, Miami, and FSU were Osborne’s bullies because they had great defensive fronts. The 1995 team did not face that caliber of run defense.
Perhaps not...and perhaps Switzer, Miami, and FSU never faced a dominant running team like '95 Nebraska. When Tommie Frazier came in late in the Orange Bowl against Miami, he faced a 'dominant' Miami defense with Warren Sapp and Ray Lewis (ranked #1 in total defense); they couldn't stop him from leading back-to-back TD drives for the tying and go ahead TDs in a 'one-dimensional' I-formation option attack. If they couldn't do it then, pretty sure they wouldn't have been able to do it in the next season when Frazier was fully healthy and had more weapons...
Posted on 7/25/23 at 4:39 pm to OldPete
quote:
Of their top teams, that applied only to K-State that year. Including Florida in the BCSCG, Nebraska beat 4 OOC Power Conference teams. #5 Colorado beat 3 ranked OOC Power Conference teams. #9 Kansas beat 2 OOC Power Conference teams.
I’m sorry but in a GOAT discussion beating these teams doesn’t impress me. None of these teams had high level players even close to what SEC teams compete against today.
quote:
Miami was leading 17-9 in the 4th quarter when Frazier came in at QB and led two late touchdown drives against Miami's touted D
Frazier started the game and switched with Berringer, who threw a TD pass.
quote:
couldn't stop the option.
Nonsense.
Nebraska scored one TD in the first three quarters. Both TD’s in the fourth quarter were on belly and trap to the fullback. Frazier had one good run on a speed option for about 25 yards and that’s it.
Miami’s offense lost the game because the offense (which wasn’t up to Miami’s usual level) couldn’t get a first down in the 4th quarter and allowed Nebraska to start drives between the 40’s.
quote:
Not really. Frazier's last regular season game in '94 was in late September, Berringer was QB for the rest of it, till the Orange Bowl where they sorta split it; in '95, Frazier was the undisputed starter. Also, Lawrence Phillips was the primary I-back in '94 but in '95 Ahman Green (a freshman) had more carries and rushing yards than Phillips...
Phillips and Frazier started both the Orange and Fiesta Bowls.
quote:
Perhaps not...and perhaps Switzer, Miami, and FSU never faced a dominant running team like '95 Nebraska. [quote]
1983 Nebraska had Turner Gill, Mike Rozier, Irving Fryar, and Dean Steinkuhler and still lost to a Miami team on the front end of its dynasty.
[quote] When Tommie Frazier came in late in the Orange Bowl against Miami, he faced a 'dominant' Miami defense with Warren Sapp and Ray Lewis (ranked #1 in total defense); they couldn't stop him from leading back-to-back TD drives for the tying and go ahead TDs in a 'one-dimensional' I-formation option attack.
Frazier started the game!
quote:
If they couldn't do it then, pretty sure they wouldn't have been able to do it in the next season when Frazier was fully healthy and had more weapons..
Who were these weapons? The 1994 OL was more talented and had a better FB. None of the WR’s could stretch the field in either year.
Posted on 7/25/23 at 5:00 pm to Globetrotter747
Sometimes on the golf course I walk up to the Alligators, just to remind them who the apex predator is.
They swim away.
They swim away.
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