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Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:18 pm to Farmer1906
That's fine. Semantics. Unfortunately, you may be correct. The "base" is acting more and more like liberals. It makes them "feel good" to vote(or not) based solely on principle. The outcome doesn't matter anymore. 
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:20 pm to Tecate
Why should they? The outcome is the same no matter if a lib or a "moderate" R is elected. There really is only one party in Washington right now.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:22 pm to Tecate
quote:
I'm really not speaking of the politicians. The far right voters don't turn out in the general election if the candidate is not conservative enough.
The GOP establishment keeps thinking that we need to run a moderate to win the moderate vote. That's how we got Romney and McCain. But the model should be a politician like Obama. A candidate who is ACTUALLY committed to enacting the policies the base wants, but who can appear reasonable and likeable to appeal to the moderates who vote on how they "feel" about a candidate.
The base, the ones who really pay some measure of attention, will get the message that the conservative who can appeal to moderates will actually try to advance the conservative agenda. They will turn out for that candidate. But if the GOP nominates a moderate who tries to appear even MORE moderate... what's the point of electing this person? This candidate will inevitably follow the same path of sham "compromise" that has us on the path to financial ruin.
I think the biggest reason Trump is having success is because so many right-of-center voters are bone tired of candidates who can't wait to wave the white flag of surrender.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:25 pm to Tecate
quote:
That's fine. Semantics. Unfortunately, you may be correct. The "base" is acting more and more like liberals. It makes them "feel good" to vote(or not) based solely on principle. The outcome doesn't matter anymore
It sure seems to me that the liberal base has gotten FAAAAAR more of it's agenda enacted thru legislation, or executive/judicial fiat than has the conservative base. I don't agree with much of the liberal agenda, but I can't dismiss the effectiveness of their tactics.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:26 pm to Mirthomatic
I understand the argument, I just don't get how electing a liberal like Trump who may possibly be a bigger narcissist than Obama solves any of that. Trump makes Bush and Kasich look like Barry Goldwater.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:32 pm to AgBQ00
quote:
The outcome is the same no matter if a lib or a "moderate" R is elected.
While not always true...even a moderate R would be more likely to nominate a conservative Supreme Court Justice and is more likely to be strong on defense.
They may all be bought and paid for, but the payees are different in most cases.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:40 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:What do you consider relevant liberal victories (as in changes from the status quo) in the last generation or so of politics?
It sure seems to me that the liberal base has gotten FAAAAAR more of it's agenda enacted thru legislation, or executive/judicial fiat than has the conservative base. I don't agree with much of the liberal agenda, but I can't dismiss the effectiveness of their tactics.
You get a half-point for Obamacare because everyone knows the "liberal base" wants single-payer.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 1:47 pm to Tecate
I see a moderate R more as a steward. None of them are going to show leadership. They will play politics and not press and lose compromises all the way through one or two terms. All the while government grows and grows and the bureaucracy gains more and more power. A slow constant bleed is just as deadly as a severed artery. It just takes longer and causes more suffering.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 2:11 pm to aggressor
quote:
I understand the argument, I just don't get how electing a liberal like Trump who may possibly be a bigger narcissist than Obama solves any of that. Trump makes Bush and Kasich look like Barry Goldwater.
I don't know what Trump's actual policy preferences are. I don't know if he even HAS policy preferences, aside from favoring whatever gets him elected. I'm not a fan of Trump, but I think it's telling that he's getting the support he is. And it isn't just due to name recognition. That's how bad things are. His message, as crude and disingenuous as it is and may be, is resonating.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 2:24 pm to Iosh
Considering the milquetoasts we have in the Congress, I'm going to claim a full 10 points for Obamacare. Whether or not it ultimately leads to single payer, we are now firmly on that road. Obamacare itself is an enormous expansion of federal power.
And I disagree w/ your definition of liberal victories as "changes in the status quo". Continuing our profligate spending while insisting that Medicare is fine and Social Security is fine is a liberal victory. The status quo is ever more spending and ever expanding government. That's an automatic win for the left.
It would be far easier to list the areas where conservatives have achieved any victories.
And I disagree w/ your definition of liberal victories as "changes in the status quo". Continuing our profligate spending while insisting that Medicare is fine and Social Security is fine is a liberal victory. The status quo is ever more spending and ever expanding government. That's an automatic win for the left.
It would be far easier to list the areas where conservatives have achieved any victories.
This post was edited on 8/17/15 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:13 pm to Mirthomatic
To change subjects a little bit, how is Hillary not in deeper shite for the emails?
LINK
I feel like if this were Jeb Bush he would been killed by now.
quote:
New Clinton email count: 305 documents referred with potentially classified information
LINK
I feel like if this were Jeb Bush he would been killed by now.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:14 pm to Farmer1906
If she wiggles out of this it will be a miracle. They are laying the groundwork for Biden or Manbearpig to step in a start a run.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:18 pm to AgBQ00
quote:
If she wiggles out of this it will be a miracle. They are laying the groundwork for Biden or Manbearpig to step in a start a run.
Her chances for president should be 6 feet under yet she is still the favorite in the polls. I've been saying for a while it won't be her, but I am still shocked she's not thought of worse off. She refuses to speak to the media. She won't debate. No one is even questioning her about it.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:24 pm to Farmer1906
I agree. She should be behind bars. It is a very dramatic example of the shambles that the media is in as compared to what their job really his. If we had a non-partisan media that actually did its job instead of openly work for a certain agenda the outcry over this would be so loud there is now way she would stay viable. As it is they seem to be hoping there is a chance for this to blow over.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:35 pm to AgBQ00
Krauthammer has been savaging her, and now even Bob Woodward has weighed in.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:38 pm to SafetySam
It's a start. I think you will see the tone toward her change drastically once the D's have a "viable" candidate declare.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:41 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:
quote:
I understand the argument, I just don't get how electing a liberal like Trump who may possibly be a bigger narcissist than Obama solves any of that. Trump makes Bush and Kasich look like Barry Goldwater.
I don't know what Trump's actual policy preferences are. I don't know if he even HAS policy preferences, aside from favoring whatever gets him elected. I'm not a fan of Trump, but I think it's telling that he's getting the support he is. And it isn't just due to name recognition. That's how bad things are. His message, as crude and disingenuous as it is and may be, is resonating.
That's really my point. A lot of Republicans like Trump because of his name rec, his immigration stance, and his lack of being PC yet they don't look under the cover or don't want to. Trump is a guy that has been for UHC, gun control, was pro choice, is pro SSM, has no religious foundation at all and has run through wives at a pretty steady clip. He has been a friend of the Clinton's and Hillary and has barely said even a harsh word in her direction, all of his attention has been on his GOP rivals. He also thinks as President he should basically be able to override Congress and just do whatever he wants regardless of the Rule of Law.
The only comparison point I can think of is my wife's grandfather that was an FDR Democrat. Guy was about the most conservative guy I had ever met when it came to what he believed in but he voted straight ticket Dem his entire life. He was one of the very few people I ever heard use the "n" word in the last 20 years and yet he had an Obama sticker on his truck. He passed a couple of years ago in his 90's and was an old WWII vet with a 6th grade education, tough old SOB.
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:44 pm to Mirthomatic
quote:"Expanding government" full stop is not automatically a win for the left, at least not outside the realms of sloganeering and talk radio. Are our wars in the Middle East a victory for the left? Was the legalization of sodomy a victory for the right? How much government expansion would be involved in a border fence and strict enforcement of our Byzantine immigration laws? Enforcement of which I am told time and again by self-named "conservatives" must be perfect before anyone dares to start thinking about maybe loosening some state control on legal immigration.
Continuing our profligate spending while insisting that Medicare is fine and Social Security is fine is a liberal victory. The status quo is ever more spending and ever expanding government. That's an automatic win for the left.
I suppose if you want to play "no true Scotsman" you could say this or that policy is not REAL conservatism, but eventually you get to the point where REAL conservatism is an argumentative curve-fitting exercise rather than a coherent political force.
This post was edited on 8/17/15 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 8/17/15 at 3:49 pm to Iosh
Real question: Why do we need to make immigration easier?
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