Started By
Message
re: 2020 4 star Lanett, Ala. Ath. Kristian Story commits to Alabama
Posted on 7/18/19 at 11:21 am to footballtimeintn
Posted on 7/18/19 at 11:21 am to footballtimeintn
quote:
Bama has to be almost full at this point, right?
They say they have 5 spots left (can take 27 total apparently)
2
Posted on 7/18/19 at 11:23 am to whitefoot
Every year while everyone can take 25 they can take 27+ something not addding up. I know they took a small class a few years ago but that’s not adding up to 2 extra spots a year
Posted on 7/18/19 at 11:34 am to Lsualum2017
It is simple. Bama sends more 3 year players to the league than anyone, Saban manages the greyshirt and transfer replacement rule better than anyone, players transfer out or medically retire, Saban controls the SEC and NCAA, when people ask why he has 100 players on scholarship he says look over there and runs, and underperforming players disappear to never be seen again but the Tuscaloosa PD and campus police have on going investigations and they will get back to you when they find something. There really isn't any mystery to it.
This post was edited on 7/18/19 at 11:43 am
Posted on 7/18/19 at 12:51 pm to Carlton
Posted on 7/18/19 at 1:45 pm to Lsualum2017
quote:
Every year while everyone can take 25 they can take 27+ something not addding up. I know they took a small class a few years ago but that’s not adding up to 2 extra spots a year
Believe it, dude. Saban's playing chess over there and other athletic departments are playing checkers.
They know the rules and they take full advantage of every loophole. I think other programs are just too scared to do the same. Hopefully that changes for us under Woodward.
Seemingly every year, Bama gets a spot back for a guy who transferred out. There's no reason we can't do the exact same thing, other than we've had a complete dolt running compliance. It'll sure be nice when we have a compliance program that works with the teams to help figure out these loopholes rather than being lazy and constantly just saying no.
Posted on 7/18/19 at 3:26 pm to whitefoot
quote:
Seemingly every year, Bama gets a spot back for a guy who transferred out. There's no reason we can't do the exact same thing, other than we've had a complete dolt running compliance
Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought the cap was 25 even if you have transfers out that doesn't change the 25 cap? I thought the only way to sign more is if you sign less than the 25 the previous year, and that # only you can add to next years class, irregardless of transfers out?
Posted on 7/18/19 at 4:09 pm to 1723lale
There's this thing called the voluntary withdrawal exception that they're exploiting. I'm not exactly sure how it works but they're using it to replace kids who transfer out.
Posted on 7/18/19 at 4:42 pm to whitefoot
The two links below are near the top of the 1st post in the Bama board recruiting thread.
Signing/Counter Limits -- Last segment:
15.5.6.4 Exceptions.
15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)
How Bama can sign 27 in the 2020 cycle:
Bama took 27 in the 2019 cycle including Kaho.
However, 2018 late addition QB Layne Hatcher wasn't on a scholarship and 2018 non-qualifier Jordan Davis didn't sign an NLI. So they didn't count toward any signing or counter limits, resulting in two unused 2018-19 signing and initial counter spots that two 2019-class early enrollees could be counted against.
Also, 2019-class early enrollees Paul Tyson and Will Reichard didn't sign NLIs. It appears that was done so they could receive scholarships as replacements (under the voluntary withdrawal exception rule -- NCAA Bylaw 15.5.6.4.1) for Vandarious Cowan and Keith Holcombe, who withdrew from the team before the 2018 fall term. Per that rule, they would count toward the 85 total counters limit, but not the annual 25 signings and 25 initial counters limits.
It also appears that Bama was able to use the voluntary withdrawal exception rule to give someone in the 2018 class (e.g., Michael Parker) a replacement scholarship for Mekhi Brown, who withdrew in 2017. If so, it wouldn't have counted toward 2018's annual limits (only the 85 limit) and would've left one more unused 2018 spot that a 2019 early enrollee could count against.
The net result of the 2019-cycle backcounting enabled by the above would result in Bama having three unused 2019 signing and initial counter spots available for backcounting three 2020 early enrollees. But assuming grad-transfer commit Landon Dickerson enrolls, he'll use one of those three 2019 spots, leaving two.
Bottom line: I think Bama can sign 27 (25 + 2 backcounted early enrollees) without requiring any gray shirting.
Signing/Counter Limits -- Last segment:
15.5.6.4 Exceptions.
15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)
How Bama can sign 27 in the 2020 cycle:
Bama took 27 in the 2019 cycle including Kaho.
However, 2018 late addition QB Layne Hatcher wasn't on a scholarship and 2018 non-qualifier Jordan Davis didn't sign an NLI. So they didn't count toward any signing or counter limits, resulting in two unused 2018-19 signing and initial counter spots that two 2019-class early enrollees could be counted against.
Also, 2019-class early enrollees Paul Tyson and Will Reichard didn't sign NLIs. It appears that was done so they could receive scholarships as replacements (under the voluntary withdrawal exception rule -- NCAA Bylaw 15.5.6.4.1) for Vandarious Cowan and Keith Holcombe, who withdrew from the team before the 2018 fall term. Per that rule, they would count toward the 85 total counters limit, but not the annual 25 signings and 25 initial counters limits.
It also appears that Bama was able to use the voluntary withdrawal exception rule to give someone in the 2018 class (e.g., Michael Parker) a replacement scholarship for Mekhi Brown, who withdrew in 2017. If so, it wouldn't have counted toward 2018's annual limits (only the 85 limit) and would've left one more unused 2018 spot that a 2019 early enrollee could count against.
The net result of the 2019-cycle backcounting enabled by the above would result in Bama having three unused 2019 signing and initial counter spots available for backcounting three 2020 early enrollees. But assuming grad-transfer commit Landon Dickerson enrolls, he'll use one of those three 2019 spots, leaving two.
Bottom line: I think Bama can sign 27 (25 + 2 backcounted early enrollees) without requiring any gray shirting.
This post was edited on 7/20/19 at 11:25 am
Posted on 7/18/19 at 7:19 pm to TidalSurge1
thanks for that explanation..
so i wonder if LSU is doing that with any of the players entering the portal. I would assume you can do that with following all those requirements, and entering the portal?
so i wonder if LSU is doing that with any of the players entering the portal. I would assume you can do that with following all those requirements, and entering the portal?
Posted on 7/18/19 at 8:40 pm to 1723lale
The voluntary withdrawal exception rule doesn't simply give you a replacement scholarship (that only counts toward the 85 limit) for every outbound transfer that you can then immediately provide to any new incoming recruit or transfer.
It appears thar the replacement player has to be enrolled without a scholarship and be a member of the team before he can receive a voluntary withdrawl replacement scholarship; i.e., he has to be a walk-on first. Also, if an incoming player has already signed an NLI or scholarship agreement, he will count against the annual signings limit for the academic year in which he initially receives financial aid.
That's why Tyson did not sign an NLI or aid agreement prior to enrolling. Instead he practiced with the team in December, probably paid his own way as a walk-on for the very short miniterm that's during the break between the fall and spring semesters, and then got the replacement scholarship for the regular full spring semester.
Reichard also didn't sign, but he enrolled in January, so he probably paid his way as a walk-on for the short spring-1 term and then got the replacement scholarship for the spring-2 term. Bama offers some courses that way.
A replacement player (e.g., 2018 Michael Parker in the 2018 class) could also establish his status as a walkon quickly and cheaply by paying his own way for a short summer-1 or summer-2 miniterm.
It's also important to understand that the two guys Tyson and Reichard replaced, voluntarily withdrew from the team before the prior fall term classes and playing season started. Per the rule, Tyson and Reichard could receive replacement scholarships after that fall term without having been on the team as a walk-on for a full year.
It appears thar the replacement player has to be enrolled without a scholarship and be a member of the team before he can receive a voluntary withdrawl replacement scholarship; i.e., he has to be a walk-on first. Also, if an incoming player has already signed an NLI or scholarship agreement, he will count against the annual signings limit for the academic year in which he initially receives financial aid.
That's why Tyson did not sign an NLI or aid agreement prior to enrolling. Instead he practiced with the team in December, probably paid his own way as a walk-on for the very short miniterm that's during the break between the fall and spring semesters, and then got the replacement scholarship for the regular full spring semester.
Reichard also didn't sign, but he enrolled in January, so he probably paid his way as a walk-on for the short spring-1 term and then got the replacement scholarship for the spring-2 term. Bama offers some courses that way.
A replacement player (e.g., 2018 Michael Parker in the 2018 class) could also establish his status as a walkon quickly and cheaply by paying his own way for a short summer-1 or summer-2 miniterm.
It's also important to understand that the two guys Tyson and Reichard replaced, voluntarily withdrew from the team before the prior fall term classes and playing season started. Per the rule, Tyson and Reichard could receive replacement scholarships after that fall term without having been on the team as a walk-on for a full year.
This post was edited on 7/20/19 at 4:07 pm
Posted on 7/18/19 at 9:52 pm to TidalSurge1
ok, i may not be understanding you correctly, forgive my ignorance, but how can they offer 2 more scholarships (27), . don't the 2 extra you are talking about have to be, like you said, on the team for a year, without scholarship, and following all the criteria you are saying? what am I missing?
ETA:
nevermind, i'm sorry.. you said they only really signed 23 last year correct?
Wait i Hatcher and Davis are not listed as the 27 signees on 247. How could they be involved? confusing
how can they be 2 unused, when they don't show up as part of the 27 signees for last year?
ETA:
nevermind, i'm sorry.. you said they only really signed 23 last year correct?
Wait i Hatcher and Davis are not listed as the 27 signees on 247. How could they be involved? confusing
quote:
late addition QB Layne Hatcher wasn't on a scholarship and 2018 non-qualifier Jordan Davis didn't sign an NLI. So they didn't count toward any signing or counter limits, resulting in two unused 2018-19 signing and initial counter spots that two 2019-class early enrollees could be counted against.
how can they be 2 unused, when they don't show up as part of the 27 signees for last year?
This post was edited on 7/18/19 at 10:04 pm
Posted on 7/18/19 at 10:22 pm to 1723lale
quote:
nevermind, i'm sorry.. you said they only really signed 23 last year correct?
They signed 27 last year, if I'm not mistaken, but had room for 29.
Posted on 7/18/19 at 10:45 pm to 1723lale
Go back and read my post again very catefully. Bama took 27, but only signed 25. The part about Davis and Hatcher (2018 cycle recruits) was explaining that they did not count against annual limits, which enabled two 2019 class early enrollees to be backounted against the 2018-19 academic year's 25 signing and initail counter limits instead of counting against the 2019-20 academic year's limits.
You can't rely solely on 247Sports recuiting class lists to determine how players counted against the annual limits. Their class listings are only intended for scoring and ranking purposes. For example, incoming undergrad and grad transfers count against annual limits, but 247 doesn't list them in that school's recruiting class because a transfer's recruit ranking is within the class when he came out of high school. It'll be interesting to see if recruiting sites start ranking undergrad and grad transfers and including them in teams' recruiting classes like they do juco players.
There are posts on the 1st page of the Bama board's pinned Football Recruiting and Roster thread for Bama's 2018 and 2019 classes and rosters that track and document how players were counted against the annual 25 signings, 25 initial counters and 85 total counters limits and all additions to and departures from the 85-man rosters.
That's what's necessary to keep track of the numbers, along with a very good understanding of the NCAA Bylaws pertaining to signing and counter limits. Those Bylaws, along with explanatory notes and articles, are also posted on the 1st page of that thread.
Also, some of the "common knowledge" about NCAA rules pertaining to signing and counter limits is incorrect. Misconceptions get posted on message boards. Other posters assume it's correct info and then rely on it and also pass it along on message boards.
For example, a lot of people think schools can still blueshirt players. It's because the rule allowing for blueshirts to count against the next year's initial counters limit still exists in the Bylaws. However, the newer signings limit rule (effective for signings on or after Aug 1, 2017) states that initial fall scholarships count against the signings limit for that current academic year. So, that rule change has made it impossible to use the old blueshirting rule.
However, schools can still grayshirt players, beause the sigings limit rule says that signed NLIs and aid agreements specifying the aid is initially received after the fall term (e.g., winter quarter or spring semester) can be counted against the signing limit for the current or following academic year. Thus, that same stipulation also supports "backcounting" early enrollees into unused signing and inital counter spots for the current academic year (prior recruiting cycle).
The annual 25 signings limit is separate from the annual 25 initial counters limit. Those two terms are not synonyms. Another example of that is when a player signs an NLI or aid agreement and then fails to qualify. There's no provision that allows the school he signed with to get that signing spot back to use for signing another player. However, that school can take him coming out of juco without having to count him a 2nd time against their annual 25 limits.
Another common misconception is that incoming transfers don't count against the annual 25 limits. They do, regardless of whether they're juco, undergrad or grad transfers.
Some recruiting reporters also propagate incorrect info about NCAA rules and how recruits are counted against limits. For example, the media incorrectly assumed Jordan Davis signed an NLI and Lane Hatcher received a scholarship.
You can't rely solely on 247Sports recuiting class lists to determine how players counted against the annual limits. Their class listings are only intended for scoring and ranking purposes. For example, incoming undergrad and grad transfers count against annual limits, but 247 doesn't list them in that school's recruiting class because a transfer's recruit ranking is within the class when he came out of high school. It'll be interesting to see if recruiting sites start ranking undergrad and grad transfers and including them in teams' recruiting classes like they do juco players.
There are posts on the 1st page of the Bama board's pinned Football Recruiting and Roster thread for Bama's 2018 and 2019 classes and rosters that track and document how players were counted against the annual 25 signings, 25 initial counters and 85 total counters limits and all additions to and departures from the 85-man rosters.
That's what's necessary to keep track of the numbers, along with a very good understanding of the NCAA Bylaws pertaining to signing and counter limits. Those Bylaws, along with explanatory notes and articles, are also posted on the 1st page of that thread.
Also, some of the "common knowledge" about NCAA rules pertaining to signing and counter limits is incorrect. Misconceptions get posted on message boards. Other posters assume it's correct info and then rely on it and also pass it along on message boards.
For example, a lot of people think schools can still blueshirt players. It's because the rule allowing for blueshirts to count against the next year's initial counters limit still exists in the Bylaws. However, the newer signings limit rule (effective for signings on or after Aug 1, 2017) states that initial fall scholarships count against the signings limit for that current academic year. So, that rule change has made it impossible to use the old blueshirting rule.
However, schools can still grayshirt players, beause the sigings limit rule says that signed NLIs and aid agreements specifying the aid is initially received after the fall term (e.g., winter quarter or spring semester) can be counted against the signing limit for the current or following academic year. Thus, that same stipulation also supports "backcounting" early enrollees into unused signing and inital counter spots for the current academic year (prior recruiting cycle).
The annual 25 signings limit is separate from the annual 25 initial counters limit. Those two terms are not synonyms. Another example of that is when a player signs an NLI or aid agreement and then fails to qualify. There's no provision that allows the school he signed with to get that signing spot back to use for signing another player. However, that school can take him coming out of juco without having to count him a 2nd time against their annual 25 limits.
Another common misconception is that incoming transfers don't count against the annual 25 limits. They do, regardless of whether they're juco, undergrad or grad transfers.
Some recruiting reporters also propagate incorrect info about NCAA rules and how recruits are counted against limits. For example, the media incorrectly assumed Jordan Davis signed an NLI and Lane Hatcher received a scholarship.
This post was edited on 7/21/19 at 8:23 am
Posted on 7/19/19 at 12:20 am to whitefoot
quote:
They signed 27 last year, if I'm not mistaken, but had room for 29.
Bama took 27 in the 2019 cycle (including late addition Kaho), but only signed 25. Tyson and Reichard didn't sign NLIs or aid agreements. They enrolled as walk-ons for a mini-term and then received voluntary withdrawal replacement scholarships which don't count against annual signing and initial counter limits, only the 85 total counters limit. And, I explained above how Bama was able to backcount three other 2019 early enrollees against unused 2018 spots. In turn, that left three unused 2019 annual limit spots. Incoming transfer Landon Dickerson is using one of those, leaving two unused 2019 spots that two 2020 early enrollees can count against. That's how Bama can sign 27 (25+2) in the 2020 cycle.
ETA: So, yes you're correct that Bama had room to take more than 27 in the 2019 cycle. Taking grad transfer Landon Dickerson is proof of that. As I've explained, Bama still has two unused 2019 spots left since Dickerson is counted against one of the three unused 2019 spots Bama had as of NSD in February.
This post was edited on 7/19/19 at 9:52 am
Posted on 7/19/19 at 9:23 am to CapstoneGrad06
Pulling for Charles. I feel he was unjustly shite on at FSU. Jimbo is a lazy shithead and ran that program into the ground.
Posted on 7/20/19 at 2:00 pm to whitefoot
quote:
I think other programs are just too scared to do the same.
I don’t think they’re scared to do it, they just don’t put in as much work to find them.
Posted on 7/21/19 at 12:02 am to whitefoot
Expected to sign 27, but up to 4-5 current commits might not be a part of the class.
Page 2 of 2
Popular
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News