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Rules Experts: The lack of a runoff after illegal shift
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:43 pm
Can we have a discussion about this actual rule, and not what happened in the game?
Up until last night, my understanding was that the following circumstances would lead to a 10 second clock runoff:
Clock under 1 minute + Clock was moving prior to the start of play + no timeouts for offense + offense gets a penalty
The intent and spirit of the rule obviously being so that the offense doesn't get an advantage of stopping the clock by committing a penalty.
Now after last night, it appears the above only applies to dead ball penalties, not all penalties. I'm having a really hard time understanding why, and would appreciate an explanation for what I'm missing.
I've seen a few different rules quoted as the applicable one to last night's game. I'm not sure which is correct, but I have problems with each of them:
Don't all fouls cause the clock to stop immediately? I get that this is probably referencing dead-ball fouls that kill the play. But the clock stops after all penalties, at the very least to announce the penalty.
This one is especially important because it specifically references being tackled in bounds short on line to gain. In other words, the clock would still be running if not for the stoppage to announce the penalty.
"The foul itself did not cause the clock to stop"
Then what did cause the clock to stop? Because the ball carrier was tackled in bounds without achieving a first down, and the clock is running. If the foul didn't cause the clock to stop, then what did?
As far as I can tell, the gist of the rules seems to be only dead ball penalties result in the runoff. It seems to me there is potential here for the offense to benefit from committing a penalty to stop the clock. Example:
8 seconds left, Offense has no timeouts, completes a pass in the middle of the field. Ball carrier is obviously going to be tackled in bounds, time is likely going to runout before the ball is snapped. Offensive player sees all of this, intentionally commits a live ball penalty(holding, facemask, block in back, whatever). Ball carrier is tackled with 00:02 left on clock. Clock stops for officials to announce penalty. During the stoppage, offense gathers itself and is ready to snap the ball as soon as official signals ready for play.
The offense gained an advantage by committing a penalty there, correct?
Up until last night, my understanding was that the following circumstances would lead to a 10 second clock runoff:
Clock under 1 minute + Clock was moving prior to the start of play + no timeouts for offense + offense gets a penalty
The intent and spirit of the rule obviously being so that the offense doesn't get an advantage of stopping the clock by committing a penalty.
Now after last night, it appears the above only applies to dead ball penalties, not all penalties. I'm having a really hard time understanding why, and would appreciate an explanation for what I'm missing.
I've seen a few different rules quoted as the applicable one to last night's game. I'm not sure which is correct, but I have problems with each of them:
quote:
b. The 10-second rule does not apply if the game clock is not running when the foul occurs or if the foul does not cause the game clock to stop immediately (e.g., illegal formation).
Don't all fouls cause the clock to stop immediately? I get that this is probably referencing dead-ball fouls that kill the play. But the clock stops after all penalties, at the very least to announce the penalty.
quote:
4. Team A players all set for one second, then A22 and A33 start in motion (no false start). At the snap, A22 has been set for one second while A33 continues his motion. The ball carrier
is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain.
RULING: Team A live-ball foul, illegal shift. Five-yard penalty.
There is no 10-second runoff because the foul itself did not cause the clock to stop. Play clock: 25 seconds.
Game clock starts on the referee’s signal.
This one is especially important because it specifically references being tackled in bounds short on line to gain. In other words, the clock would still be running if not for the stoppage to announce the penalty.
"The foul itself did not cause the clock to stop"
Then what did cause the clock to stop? Because the ball carrier was tackled in bounds without achieving a first down, and the clock is running. If the foul didn't cause the clock to stop, then what did?
As far as I can tell, the gist of the rules seems to be only dead ball penalties result in the runoff. It seems to me there is potential here for the offense to benefit from committing a penalty to stop the clock. Example:
8 seconds left, Offense has no timeouts, completes a pass in the middle of the field. Ball carrier is obviously going to be tackled in bounds, time is likely going to runout before the ball is snapped. Offensive player sees all of this, intentionally commits a live ball penalty(holding, facemask, block in back, whatever). Ball carrier is tackled with 00:02 left on clock. Clock stops for officials to announce penalty. During the stoppage, offense gathers itself and is ready to snap the ball as soon as official signals ready for play.
The offense gained an advantage by committing a penalty there, correct?
This post was edited on 9/25/16 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:45 pm to Open Your Eyes
That is one long post about one meaningless game
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:47 pm to Open Your Eyes
The refs preferred to rip their hearts out after letting them think they won.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:47 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:It's in reference to the clock starting at the refs signal or at the snap. If it causes the clock to start at the snap, then there's a runoff. That wasn't the case in last night's game.
"The foul itself did not cause the clock to stop"
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:51 pm to Open Your Eyes
Why would there be a ten-second runoff? It's a dead ball foul. There are no ten-second penalties for dead ball fouls.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:51 pm to Iron Lion
quote:
That is one long post about one meaningless game
Meaningless? You're a tad bit cocky with a thin RB unit and a freshman QB. We don't really know anything about Alabama/Ole Miss yet. FSU isn't that good, USC absolutely blows, Bama still has 3 of the best DL units in the nation to face.. There is a lot of season to be played yet. I am not buying that Bama/Ole Miss are world beaters.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:53 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
It's in reference to the clock starting at the refs signal or at the snap. If it causes the clock to start at the snap, then there's a runoff. That wasn't the case in last night's game.
Again, I get that. But are we just pretending that the offense is not allowed to move and get themselves organized to be able to snap the ball immediately on the ready for play signal while the referees are announcing the penalty?
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:54 pm to dbeck
quote:
The refs preferred to rip their hearts out after letting them think they won.
The only way fans can have their hearts ripped out is if they had something truly meaningful lost. As the previous poster said, this was a meaningless game.
The loss is one more nail in Miles' coffin.
Auburn won the battle, LSU won the more meaningful competition (The War to lose their current coach by seasons end).
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:55 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:
Don't all fouls cause the clock to stop immediately? I get that this is probably referencing dead-ball fouls that kill the play. But the clock stops after all penalties, at the very least to announce the penalty.
Immediately means immediately. Blocks in the back on kick returns don't cause the clock to stop immediately...i.e. blown dead.
quote:
This one is especially important because it specifically references being tackled in bounds short on line to gain. In other words, the clock would still be running if not for the stoppage to announce the penalty.
Tackles after the line to gain or out of bounds stop the clock anyway...penalty or no penalty.
This post was edited on 9/25/16 at 1:58 pm
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:55 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:No, we aren't pretending that. But they could have done the same thing while they were spotting the ball after the 1st down if there wasn't a penalty.
But are we just pretending that the offense is not allowed to move and get themselves organized to be able to snap the ball immediately on the ready for play signal while the referees are announcing the penalty?
Posted on 9/25/16 at 1:57 pm to Bench McElroy
quote:
Why would there be a ten-second runoff? It's a dead ball foul. There are no ten-second penalties for dead ball fouls.
Please explain, because the rules seem to state exactly the opposite of that.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:02 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
No, we aren't pretending that. But they could have done the same thing while they were spotting the ball after the 1st down if there wasn't a penalty.
1. As I said, one of the rules specifically references ball carrier stopped in bounds short of the line to gain.
2. I don't even understand why a first down is relevant. The amount of real life time the clock is stopped to announce a penalty >>>>>> the amount of time the clock is stopped to spot the ball after a first down. There should still be some kind of runoff in this situation, maybe 5 seconds.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:04 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:
quote:
b. The 10-second rule does not apply if the game clock is not running when the foul occurs or if the foul does not cause the game clock to stop immediately (e.g., illegal formation).
This clearly answers your question. Penalties that don't cause the clock to stop immediately (like illegal formation) would include any penalties that don't require the play to be blown dead as soon as the foul occurs. I'm not sure why you are confused.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:05 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:
8 seconds left, Offense has no timeouts, completes a pass in the middle of the field. Ball carrier is obviously going to be tackled in bounds, time is likely going to runout before the ball is snapped. Offensive player sees all of this, intentionally commits a live ball penalty(holding, facemask, block in back, whatever). Ball carrier is tackled with 00:02 left on clock. Clock stops for officials to announce penalty. During the stoppage, offense gathers itself and is ready to snap the ball as soon as official signals ready for play.
The offense gained an advantage by committing a penalty there, correct?
Theoretically, perhaps. I don't know if a player in the heat of the moment would think to tackle using the face mask just to stop the clock. If it ever happens in a big game, and people make a big deal about it, it might be changed. That's how rules changes happen sometimes.
edit...it would be the offense, not the defense. So an offensive player would have to have the presence of mind to block in the back while the ball is live. Usually they are looking to receive a lateral.
This post was edited on 9/25/16 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:06 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:So we're just making up rules now?
There should still be some kind of runoff in this situation, maybe 5 seconds.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:06 pm to Open Your Eyes
quote:
Why would there be a ten-second runoff? It's a dead ball foul. There are no ten-second penalties for dead ball fouls.
Please explain, because the rules seem to state exactly the opposite of that.
You're right there. There absolutely are run-offs for dead ball penalties. Rules are clear on that.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:11 pm to BamaGradinTn
quote:
Tackles after the line to gain or out of bounds stop the clock anyway...penalty or no penalty.
Again, the rule specifically mentions tackled in bounds short of line to gain. Literally nothing of what you just said is applicable.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:12 pm to Open Your Eyes
It was not a dead-ball foul. It happened simultaneously with the snap. No run-off but no clock stoppage.. hence why the clock started on the referee's signal and ticked to zero.
This very well could have happened, but Les is not good at footballs.
quote:
During the stoppage, offense gathers itself and is ready to snap the ball as soon as official signals ready for play.
This very well could have happened, but Les is not good at footballs.
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:13 pm to UpToPar
quote:
UpToPar
8 seconds left, Offense has no timeouts, completes a pass in the middle of the field. Ball carrier is obviously going to be tackled in bounds, time is likely going to runout before the ball is snapped. Offensive player sees all of this, intentionally commits a live ball penalty(holding, facemask, block in back, whatever). Ball carrier is tackled with 00:02 left on clock. Clock stops for officials to announce penalty. During the stoppage, offense gathers itself and is ready to snap the ball as soon as official signals ready for play.
The offense gained an advantage by committing a penalty there, correct?
Posted on 9/25/16 at 2:15 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
So we're just making up rules now?
Are you only capable of trying to twist me giving an opinion on a possible rule into me making up rules, and not actually answering any questions?
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