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Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:40 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
PCU is rapid everywhere now.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:40 pm to TbirdSpur2010
I was in the "indifferent" category, but I believe I see your point, which goes beyond the racial nonsense.
Although inconsistent at times throughout history, America was founded as an instrument for the cause of "liberty and justice for all." The confederate government was an instrument for the privileged. To maintain the symbols of the confederate goverment is to allow the enemy to deny defeat and to cheapen the effectiveness of victory and wholesale change.
After Japan surrendered in WWII, we forced them to change their flag as a symbol of our victory and to put down any hope of Japan ever returning to the warmongering aggressor it had been. Doing so was a symbolic mind control tactic designed to kill any remaning fight the Japanese had in them. That level of psychology was probably not understood in 1864, because many of the symbols of confederate south and its government were allowed to remain. Allowing those symbols to exist has fostered hope in generation after generation that one day, "the South will rise again." Victory was never fully achieved because the south continued to resist through small acts of defiance, particularly through government symbols.
The Mississippi flag contains elements of both the battle flag and national confederate flag. It was unofficially adopted many years after the war ended, but it appears creating that flag was another overt act of rebellion by the people of Mississippi. That should have been corrected immediately and treated as an act of war. It appears that Mississippi was still fighting a lost cause and got away with it.
For that reason, all symbols of the confederate government should be BANNED from ANY government facility or any state flag, but not to cure racial tension or hate. Rather, to symbolize complete victory and defeat. We can still honor those who served without maintaining purpetuating the cause of the extinct, defeated, and invalid confederate government.
On a personal level--to everyone--don't ever take offense--ever. Don't do it. Read tRant and see how taking offense surrenders power to the troll. It applies IRL too.
Although inconsistent at times throughout history, America was founded as an instrument for the cause of "liberty and justice for all." The confederate government was an instrument for the privileged. To maintain the symbols of the confederate goverment is to allow the enemy to deny defeat and to cheapen the effectiveness of victory and wholesale change.
After Japan surrendered in WWII, we forced them to change their flag as a symbol of our victory and to put down any hope of Japan ever returning to the warmongering aggressor it had been. Doing so was a symbolic mind control tactic designed to kill any remaning fight the Japanese had in them. That level of psychology was probably not understood in 1864, because many of the symbols of confederate south and its government were allowed to remain. Allowing those symbols to exist has fostered hope in generation after generation that one day, "the South will rise again." Victory was never fully achieved because the south continued to resist through small acts of defiance, particularly through government symbols.
The Mississippi flag contains elements of both the battle flag and national confederate flag. It was unofficially adopted many years after the war ended, but it appears creating that flag was another overt act of rebellion by the people of Mississippi. That should have been corrected immediately and treated as an act of war. It appears that Mississippi was still fighting a lost cause and got away with it.
For that reason, all symbols of the confederate government should be BANNED from ANY government facility or any state flag, but not to cure racial tension or hate. Rather, to symbolize complete victory and defeat. We can still honor those who served without maintaining purpetuating the cause of the extinct, defeated, and invalid confederate government.
On a personal level--to everyone--don't ever take offense--ever. Don't do it. Read tRant and see how taking offense surrenders power to the troll. It applies IRL too.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:42 pm to KaiserSoze99
Now, with all that said, frick yankees and their rude-arse, carpet-bagging, goose-stepping commie ways.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:47 pm to KaiserSoze99
quote:
Speak up, bitch. Do you believe removing a symbol adopted by racists will make them not racist? All that does is validate and lend power to racists. Now they know they can offend stupid people, which you obviously are.
Nobody say Voldemort. Do not speak his name!!!
Dear Lord, stupid people are so easy to control.
Nobody is saying stupid people won't be racist if they don't fly the damn flag. That's not the point. The point is the flag (whether you like it or not) is a symbol of white supremacy. When you decide that you want that same symbol on the flag that is identifying your state, that's not okay. It doesn't matter if you think it stands for southern pride. What it actually stands for thanks to the KKK is white is right and lynching is okay. I'd like the swastika to still represent Himduism. It doesn't now. Sometimes shite like that happens. It DOES validate and lend power to racists to ignore the historical and social implications of the flag and let it keep flying. Should you remove it from history? No. No one is saying people should ignore the past. Teach the bad parts especially. Put it in the history books and tell our grandchildren how evil people used it as their flag doing evil things , but flying a symbol like that on an institution of higher learning is fricked.
It's not about being afraid of it, it's not About being "controlled" it's about saying the values that flag stands for are not the values that belong on the same poll as the American flag, dammit.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:52 pm to Purplehaze44
The problem is that the racist jackasses will take over symbols and own all symbolism if given that power.
I agree that all confederate symbols ahould be removed, but for different reasons. See my post above.
I agree that all confederate symbols ahould be removed, but for different reasons. See my post above.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 3:57 pm to KaiserSoze99
quote:
After Japan surrendered in WWII, we forced them to change their flag as a symbol of our victory and to put down any hope of Japan ever returning to the warmongering aggressor it had been. Doing so was a symbolic mind control tactic designed to kill any remaining fight the Japanese had in them
Hadn't ever heard this before but it makes sense. Apparently the Rising Sun flag is offensive to many Koreans and Chinese.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:09 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Yep, I had you pegged for one of those revisionist history academics.
To Ignore all other aspects of this war is just ignorant. Slavery was not illegal before the war. Hell you even had it in the North at the time. Like I said answer me these questions if you are so stuck on the fact this entire war was about slavery.
Why did Lincoln wait until after the start of the Civil War to make the emancipation proclamation? Why did the north at the time specifically New Jersey have slaves as well? Also why did the North give the slaves back to the Southern states during the war when they fled across the boarder?
I can pick out documents too
Corner Stone” Speech
Alexander H. Stephens
Savannah, Georgia
March 21, 1861
This new constitution. or form of government, constitutes the subject to which your attention will be partly invited. In reference to it, I make this first general remark: it amply secures all our ancient rights, franchises, and liberties. All the great principles of Magna Charta are retained in it. No citizen is deprived of life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers under the laws of the land. The great principle of religious liberty, which was the honor and pride of the old constitution, is still maintained and secured. All the essentials of the old constitution, which have endeared it to the hearts of the American people, have been preserved and perpetuated. Some changes have been made. Some of these I should have preferred not to have seen made; but other important changes do meet my cordial approbation. They form great improvements upon the old constitution. So, taking the whole new constitution, I have no hesitancy in giving it as my judgment that it is decidedly better than the old.
Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged. This old thorn of the tariff, which was the cause of so much irritation in the old body politic, is removed forever from the new.
LINK
This post was edited on 10/21/15 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:15 pm to KaiserSoze99
quote:
The problem is that the racist jackasses will take over symbols and own all symbolism if given that power.
Yes and no. It takes influence and numbers to build a symbol like that. There needed to be lots of Christians to make the cross a symbol of Christianity. But when enough people are unified over a common ideology and they have a banner they all fly collectively, that banner becomes tied to their ideology. Good or bad. It's how language works in general, verbal or otherwise. The word"tree" means literally nothing until enough people all start using it the same way, but once that happens, tree means tree, whether we like it that way or not.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:26 pm to oneusairman
quote:
I can pick out documents too
Obviously, which is why I said:
quote:
you can always do research that will support your position
From your link:
quote:
The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.
EVERYWHERE are references to slavery in the secession of the southern states. All their articles of secession, all their speeches, even in their founding document which LIMITED state's rights when it came to slavery. That you ignore that fact is all the proof of your delusion that anyone should need.
All the rest was talk that was quickly forgotten when the chips were down and Farragut had stopped virtually all foreign aid. Taxes, draft, outrageous acts of the treasury, confiscations... that government was a total sham. The worst part of it was that they KNEW a confederacy with a weak federal government would fail - BECAUSE IT ALREADY HAD IN 1781.
Your position is pure lunacy.
I think the Kaiser put it quite well above:
quote:
America was founded as an instrument for the cause of "liberty and justice for all." The confederate government was an instrument for the privileged.
Why people insist on keeping our house divided, I'll never understand, unless it simply out of fear.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:30 pm to Purplehaze44
I agree. "Gay" meant "happy" before it meant "Aggy".
But that furthers my point. Don't retire a symbol because a group of idiots uses it to try and make others angry. It's like dealing with free speech. The best way to combat speach you hate is not to oppress it, but to deliver speech of your own, and the best ideas will win out.
But, as I said, all symbolic references to a rebelious, illegitimate government should be banned to solidify victory and repress future rebellion. Mississippi's flag needs to go.
But that furthers my point. Don't retire a symbol because a group of idiots uses it to try and make others angry. It's like dealing with free speech. The best way to combat speach you hate is not to oppress it, but to deliver speech of your own, and the best ideas will win out.
But, as I said, all symbolic references to a rebelious, illegitimate government should be banned to solidify victory and repress future rebellion. Mississippi's flag needs to go.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:30 pm to Ted2010
So who else sees the timing of this action kind of odd (or let's say contrived)?They pass this thing knowing that they are under an interim Chancellor who is not going to make such a decision as interim. Why should he? They have a new Chancellor on the way. Reckon this is going to be the first thing he takes on? Dan Jones found out he picked the wrong fights early and often.
At least they can say- "we tried"!
At least they can say- "we tried"!
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:35 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
To Ignore all other aspects of this war is just ignorant. Slavery was not illegal before the war. Hell you even had it in the North at the time. Like I said answer me these questions if you are so stuck on the fact this entire war was about slavery. Why did Lincoln wait until after the start of the Civil War to make the emancipation proclamation? Why did the north at the time specifically New Jersey have slaves as well? Also why did the North give the slaves back to the Southern states during the war when they fled across the boarder?
Not sure if you have a problem reading but I will repost. I never said slavery was not apart of the civil war. Again civil war was about state rights which included slavery, trade, economics, and social status. Those times where horrible by todays standards but to make the whole thing about slavery is just plain wrong and the typical liberal view. Cheer pick what you want and ignore the rest. You would ignore every fact I put in front of you about all the other issues.
This post was edited on 10/21/15 at 4:50 pm
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:40 pm to KaiserSoze99
quote:
I agree. "Gay" meant "happy" before it meant "Aggy".
But that furthers my point. Don't retire a symbol because a group of idiots uses it to try and make others angry. It's like dealing with free speech. The best way to combat speach you hate is not to oppress it, but to deliver speech of your own, and the best ideas will win out.
First off, that was funny. I commend that.
I agree and I disagree with what you said. Yes, you can't opress free speech, but you also don't have to endorse it. Flying it on government buildings is endorsing it, putting it on your state flags endorses it. Instead, make a new flag, saying we know what this flag says, and so are choosing not to fly it because of that. But if you want it on your lawn, it's your right as an American to be what most of us agree is pretty shitty, but it doesn't make you any less of an Anerican in the eyes of the laws that bind us all together.
The military reasoning is interesting.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:50 pm to oneusairman
quote:
Not sure if you have a problem reading
Not at all.
quote:
I never said slavery was not apart of the civil war. Again civil war was about state rights which included slavery, trade, economics, and social status. Those times where horrible by todays standards but to make the whole thing about slavery is just plain wrong and the typical liberal view. Cheer pick what you want and ignore the rest. You would ignore every fact I put in front of you about all the other issues.
You're avoiding the point.
Your own link said slavery "was the immediate cause" of the Civil War. That's my point. I'm not cherry picking anything, I'm just not dodging anything either. The people of the time were clear as to what caused the War - slavery.
quote:
Ah, but I'm not talking about what caused it, I'm talking about why it was fought.
But please, do go on equivocating, I'm listening...
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:52 pm to Purplehaze44
I only disagree with the reason. The flag means many things to different people. The one reason that nobody can argue or deny, that allows government to act without appearing to take sides is to ban states from using symbols of an illegitimate government that was at war with, and unequivocally defeated by, the United States of America. That is a government v. government stance that nobody can deny without committing treason. It's a more compelling, conclusive argument that takes no side and legitimizes no position of individuals. Do it that way and we won't jack shite from anybody. Case closed. Problem solved. Nobody wins but USA.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:55 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
See this is your problem. You see slavery as the sole issue of that war, when it was not. Again STATES RIGHTS are the issue for that war which includes Political Representation, Economics, Social Status, Slavery and Trade. Slavery for the war only falls under one side of the problems which would be economics. The main issues was the South did not have equal representation in the Congress. They wanted there opinions to matter (obviously wrong opinions but still that was the issue).
Posted on 10/21/15 at 4:58 pm to KaiserSoze99
But because it means different things to different people, people won't just see it as get. v. govt. they still see it as "taking our history away." But arguing about the reason to do it and whether people would react differently on a message board about football when we've both expressed our views relatively well Seems moot. Especially as I pointed out, on a football message board.
Posted on 10/21/15 at 5:02 pm to oneusairman
quote:
STATES RIGHTS
Why didn't the Confederate Constitution allow the individual states to decide whether or not to allow the enslavement of people within their borders?
Posted on 10/21/15 at 5:07 pm to Purplehaze44
Football is an American sport and we are talking a out America. Thus, relevant.
By the way, see the "STATES' RIGHTS" over constitutional freedoms argument above as more evidence that the reason the symbols need to be removed is solely a matter of victory over that cause and total destruction of that ideal.
By the way, see the "STATES' RIGHTS" over constitutional freedoms argument above as more evidence that the reason the symbols need to be removed is solely a matter of victory over that cause and total destruction of that ideal.
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