Started By
Message
Is Afghanistan the graveyard of empires? (Historical discussion)
Posted on 8/21/21 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 8/21/21 at 1:19 pm
So... we will all hear that Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires. Probably ten or more times a day if we are following that story.
Are they really?
The Persians first conquered Afghanistan and it was a bit of walkover. They held onto it for a good long time. Alexander the Great, who is listed as being someone who "failed" to conquer Afghanistan was next.
He kicked the shite of out them. Alexander invaded in 330 BC. The successor state that came after he died held on for a long time. To put it this way, when Jesus was upset about money lenders in the temple... Greeks ruled a huge chunk of Afghanistan.
Time rolls on. The Arab Caliphate, which we do not hear much about, comes along with the birth of Islam. They kick the shite of the Afghanis and convert them to the Muslim faith on the way to establishing a government that stretches from Spain to Southern Asia.
They eventually fade, not because of Afghanistan but the usual you got to big to govern problem of ancient empires. We get the easy to pronounce Khwarazmian Empire next. No, really. That is the name. It stretched from Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf.
(See next entry)
Are they really?
The Persians first conquered Afghanistan and it was a bit of walkover. They held onto it for a good long time. Alexander the Great, who is listed as being someone who "failed" to conquer Afghanistan was next.
He kicked the shite of out them. Alexander invaded in 330 BC. The successor state that came after he died held on for a long time. To put it this way, when Jesus was upset about money lenders in the temple... Greeks ruled a huge chunk of Afghanistan.
Time rolls on. The Arab Caliphate, which we do not hear much about, comes along with the birth of Islam. They kick the shite of the Afghanis and convert them to the Muslim faith on the way to establishing a government that stretches from Spain to Southern Asia.
They eventually fade, not because of Afghanistan but the usual you got to big to govern problem of ancient empires. We get the easy to pronounce Khwarazmian Empire next. No, really. That is the name. It stretched from Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf.
(See next entry)
4
Posted on 8/21/21 at 1:26 pm to Arksulli
The Khwarizm Empire did pretty well for itself in their neck of the woods but eventually the Mongols came calling.
With a really sweet trading deal. The Mongols had all these goods from China (they were in the process of conquering said area) and wanted to trade throughout the Khwarizm Empire. Which would also let them trade into India.
And they robbed the first big trading caravan and then murdered the diplomats Genghis sent. Genghis got a case of the red arse.
He pulled out of China, gathered his troops, and then unleashed a ton of beatings on Afghanistan in particular and the Khwarizm Empire in general.
Mongols or, their successor states, would rule Afghanistan for the next several centuries.
(See final entry)
With a really sweet trading deal. The Mongols had all these goods from China (they were in the process of conquering said area) and wanted to trade throughout the Khwarizm Empire. Which would also let them trade into India.
And they robbed the first big trading caravan and then murdered the diplomats Genghis sent. Genghis got a case of the red arse.
He pulled out of China, gathered his troops, and then unleashed a ton of beatings on Afghanistan in particular and the Khwarizm Empire in general.
Mongols or, their successor states, would rule Afghanistan for the next several centuries.
(See final entry)
Posted on 8/21/21 at 1:42 pm to Arksulli
We get to the modern era.
Britain and Russia were caught up in "The Great Game." Basically India was the crown jewel of the British Empire and Russia really wanted it. Afghanistan was seen as the fulcrum point in Central Asia and Britain occupied it.
Being Colonial Britain they naturally, after whipping the Afghanis in a stand up fight, assigned an elderly, poorly regarded, and quite likely suffering from dementia General to over see the country.
Which is why we get our big "Empire's Graveyard" moment because it went as badly as you can imagine. Britain did mount a punitive expedition that... sing along you know the song, kicked the shite of the Afghanis. The British Empire, it should be noted, enjoyed its most successful years after this.
So we get to recent years. The Soviets "invaded" to support a Communist regime that had come into power because the bat shite crazy Islamic factions were growing in power. They whipped up on the Afghanis but eventually left because communism doesn't work and the Soviet Union was falling apart.
We invade because they were letting Al-Qaeda base out of there... and whip them.
The thing is... beating the Afghanis is easy. They fold like a deck of cards. Its holding onto Afghanistan that can be difficult.
Historically speaking Afghanistan is not this country filled with mythic level warriors who will defeat everyone. It is a pretty lousy place that is easy to conquer but a pain to hold onto. For modern powers its not worth holding onto because the people there will tell you how much they love while reaching for a dagger to stab you in the back.
We, essentially, lost a war over a crack house. You have to really want that crack house to keep it.
Yes, Biden screwed up badly. As did Trump. As did Obama. As did Bush. The best way to handle Afghanistan, unless you are going all in, is to go in, kick their asses, and then leave as soon as possible.
Britain and Russia were caught up in "The Great Game." Basically India was the crown jewel of the British Empire and Russia really wanted it. Afghanistan was seen as the fulcrum point in Central Asia and Britain occupied it.
Being Colonial Britain they naturally, after whipping the Afghanis in a stand up fight, assigned an elderly, poorly regarded, and quite likely suffering from dementia General to over see the country.
Which is why we get our big "Empire's Graveyard" moment because it went as badly as you can imagine. Britain did mount a punitive expedition that... sing along you know the song, kicked the shite of the Afghanis. The British Empire, it should be noted, enjoyed its most successful years after this.
So we get to recent years. The Soviets "invaded" to support a Communist regime that had come into power because the bat shite crazy Islamic factions were growing in power. They whipped up on the Afghanis but eventually left because communism doesn't work and the Soviet Union was falling apart.
We invade because they were letting Al-Qaeda base out of there... and whip them.
The thing is... beating the Afghanis is easy. They fold like a deck of cards. Its holding onto Afghanistan that can be difficult.
Historically speaking Afghanistan is not this country filled with mythic level warriors who will defeat everyone. It is a pretty lousy place that is easy to conquer but a pain to hold onto. For modern powers its not worth holding onto because the people there will tell you how much they love while reaching for a dagger to stab you in the back.
We, essentially, lost a war over a crack house. You have to really want that crack house to keep it.
Yes, Biden screwed up badly. As did Trump. As did Obama. As did Bush. The best way to handle Afghanistan, unless you are going all in, is to go in, kick their asses, and then leave as soon as possible.
Posted on 8/21/21 at 4:16 pm to Arksulli
Posted on 8/21/21 at 7:39 pm to Arksulli
There were some fighting positions from one of the Anglo-Afghan wars that you could still see on a ridgeline on the west side of my camp.
During the 1990s civil war, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar garrisoned at the site that would later become my camp.
The graveyard of empires is a lazy meme. The British got exactly what they wanted out of the Anglo-Afghan wars... a buffer state between the British Raj and the Russian Empire.
It has really just been us and the Soviets that failed in Afghanistan, and you could put our failure on mission creep.
During the 1990s civil war, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar garrisoned at the site that would later become my camp.
The graveyard of empires is a lazy meme. The British got exactly what they wanted out of the Anglo-Afghan wars... a buffer state between the British Raj and the Russian Empire.
It has really just been us and the Soviets that failed in Afghanistan, and you could put our failure on mission creep.
This post was edited on 8/21/21 at 7:40 pm
Posted on 8/22/21 at 4:04 pm to Arksulli
quote:
The Khwarizm Empire
this won't answer any of your questions, but you'll enjoy this free movie
The Legend of Tomiris
Posted on 8/22/21 at 4:12 pm to Arksulli
the best thing is to leave them alone in the first place and let them herd their goats and pray to Allah and live in their caves
that would include not robbing the American citizenry of our money every year to fund war for profit all over the world so that our money is funneled right into the coffers of military industrial complex companies and then laundered out to God knows who after that
But we're already dead in the water because idiots on both sides of the political spectrum love war and will never do anything to stand up against it.
We have deadly drug cartels and MS-13 IN our country, not just on the other side of the border, and we COULD get our military to handle those terrorists, but no, no, we can't have that. We need to spend trillions instead to frick around potshotting goat herders in the eastern deserts
that would include not robbing the American citizenry of our money every year to fund war for profit all over the world so that our money is funneled right into the coffers of military industrial complex companies and then laundered out to God knows who after that
But we're already dead in the water because idiots on both sides of the political spectrum love war and will never do anything to stand up against it.
We have deadly drug cartels and MS-13 IN our country, not just on the other side of the border, and we COULD get our military to handle those terrorists, but no, no, we can't have that. We need to spend trillions instead to frick around potshotting goat herders in the eastern deserts
This post was edited on 8/22/21 at 4:14 pm
Posted on 8/22/21 at 11:12 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
I....
Agree.
Agree.
Posted on 8/23/21 at 6:05 am to Arksulli
Afghanistan is not shite.
Damn near any country willing to wage "WAR" could clear those goat frickers out in a week.
Nobody is willing to do it with the world watching.
Damn near any country willing to wage "WAR" could clear those goat frickers out in a week.
Nobody is willing to do it with the world watching.
Posted on 8/25/21 at 4:12 am to 3down10
Ghengis Khan must be the greatest general of all time then.
Posted on 8/25/21 at 11:19 am to macjonesgoat
quote:
Ghengis Khan must be the greatest general of all time then.
He's up there. Ghengis also got a bit lucky in that he was able to use a few innovations at just the right time. The compound bow was as powerful as a longbow, but could be fired while riding. Steppe Nomad hunting parties used the same pattern that worked great in mobile warfare. And... most don't realize this... they were an early adopter of an extremely effective armor.
They don't get much attention here but historically speaking horse archers were far and away the dominant military arm for 1800+ years (Samurai, as an example, were almost exclusively horse archers in real life). The only place they weren't was... Europe. Europe doesn't have the terrain for really mobile warfare.
Ghengis was great at waging mobile warfare.
Posted on 8/25/21 at 2:29 pm to Arksulli
I think the bigger issue is the resource sink it becomes when you don't have realistic expectations.
What better things could our country have done with the trillions sunk into a doomed Afghani war effort?
- Lower debt
- Better investment of those taxpayer (or lender) dollars that could have yielded returns on our long term economic viability
- Not taking it from taxpayers (or lenders) in first place, allowing for better private sector investment and growth
All or any of those have positive economic rates of returns.
Add to that all of the actual bad that came from it:
- Thousands of dead and wounded on our side
- Increased fervor for radical Islamists across the world. A nice environment for future generations of jihadis to be trained or inspired
- The shame and loss of prestige/standing we're experiencing this very moment
To actually address the spirit of OP question:
It was a bad investment. Now is it because Afghanistan has some protective spell on it? Or is it Forrest Gump and it just keeps showing up at key points in history? I don't know. You provide good evidence its really the latter.
As far as the US's folly, regardless of why - the tragedy is that we had recent and high-profile examples of the futility of anything but a tactical victory in the region and ignored it anyways. Taking all of those L's mentioned in bullet points above as a result.
The whole debacle was just totally avoidable and it goes to show that this nation has lacked true, visionary leadership for a very long time. Many administrations worth.
What better things could our country have done with the trillions sunk into a doomed Afghani war effort?
- Lower debt
- Better investment of those taxpayer (or lender) dollars that could have yielded returns on our long term economic viability
- Not taking it from taxpayers (or lenders) in first place, allowing for better private sector investment and growth
All or any of those have positive economic rates of returns.
Add to that all of the actual bad that came from it:
- Thousands of dead and wounded on our side
- Increased fervor for radical Islamists across the world. A nice environment for future generations of jihadis to be trained or inspired
- The shame and loss of prestige/standing we're experiencing this very moment
To actually address the spirit of OP question:
It was a bad investment. Now is it because Afghanistan has some protective spell on it? Or is it Forrest Gump and it just keeps showing up at key points in history? I don't know. You provide good evidence its really the latter.
As far as the US's folly, regardless of why - the tragedy is that we had recent and high-profile examples of the futility of anything but a tactical victory in the region and ignored it anyways. Taking all of those L's mentioned in bullet points above as a result.
The whole debacle was just totally avoidable and it goes to show that this nation has lacked true, visionary leadership for a very long time. Many administrations worth.
This post was edited on 8/25/21 at 2:32 pm
Posted on 8/25/21 at 3:17 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
quote:
the best thing is to leave them alone in the first place and let them herd their goats and pray to Allah and live in their caves
This.
Leave the Middle East alone for the next eternity. We gain nothing (but oil) from fricking with them, and in return we get prolonged, debt-inducing wars and then we just end up creating more terrorists and rogue agents than we initially had to deal with when we arrived.
Posted on 8/26/21 at 3:01 am to DirtyDawg
quote:buut..but.. it's the American Way
we get prolonged, debt-inducing wars
Hint: we trade leadership every four years or so; however the defense industry (MIC) still keeps a chugging and driving along. For the long term ride.
So where we going next?
Posted on 8/26/21 at 10:56 am to awestruck
quote:
buut..but.. it's the American Way
Hint: we trade leadership every four years or so; however the defense industry (MIC) still keeps a chugging and driving along. For the long term ride.
So where we going next?
Eisenhower saw this shite coming from a 1,000 miles away. Too bad no one cared enough to stop the military industrial complex, or they got paid to not care.
Posted on 8/27/21 at 3:01 pm to Arksulli
Well my favorite military historian blog writer... Okay I acknowledge that isn't a huge group of people... posted something about Afghanistan today.
I mildly disagree with Dr. Devereuax on some points (I lean more towards the Greeks holding out longer in Afghanistan than he does, but he does have a doctorate in history on his side) but I tend to agree with him on many points. Particularly because he leans towards the center right in his political views. What the Poliboard calls a Godless Heathen Commie.
He made an analogy on his blog that I find hard to refute. Afghanistan is the mid-life crisis car for empires. Useless as teats on a boar hog but you can't resist buying it. Unless you have your heart set on becoming an international drug dealer in the opium market (we make ours just fine synthetically) Afghanistan really is without worth.
As some of us have seen from various memes... there are a trillion dollars of minerals in Afghanistan! Yes. But the cost getting super heavy mining equipment in there and then getting raw minerals out means Afghanistan will likely be one of the last places on Earth we go digging. Hell, we might be mining asteroids before then.
So empires, or the US, go in full of vim and vigor and then realize... you know I've got three kids and this sporty two seater sure looks nice but I can't even run to the grocery store with it. Countries fight over things that are worth something to them... Afghanistan is simply not worth fighting for. It never was. Rooting out the Taliban in the first place and killing bin Laden was the only reason to go in there.
LINK
Warning, when he says pedantic he means it. The good Dr. makes me look succinct and to the point.
I mildly disagree with Dr. Devereuax on some points (I lean more towards the Greeks holding out longer in Afghanistan than he does, but he does have a doctorate in history on his side) but I tend to agree with him on many points. Particularly because he leans towards the center right in his political views. What the Poliboard calls a Godless Heathen Commie.
He made an analogy on his blog that I find hard to refute. Afghanistan is the mid-life crisis car for empires. Useless as teats on a boar hog but you can't resist buying it. Unless you have your heart set on becoming an international drug dealer in the opium market (we make ours just fine synthetically) Afghanistan really is without worth.
As some of us have seen from various memes... there are a trillion dollars of minerals in Afghanistan! Yes. But the cost getting super heavy mining equipment in there and then getting raw minerals out means Afghanistan will likely be one of the last places on Earth we go digging. Hell, we might be mining asteroids before then.
So empires, or the US, go in full of vim and vigor and then realize... you know I've got three kids and this sporty two seater sure looks nice but I can't even run to the grocery store with it. Countries fight over things that are worth something to them... Afghanistan is simply not worth fighting for. It never was. Rooting out the Taliban in the first place and killing bin Laden was the only reason to go in there.
LINK
Warning, when he says pedantic he means it. The good Dr. makes me look succinct and to the point.
Posted on 8/27/21 at 5:32 pm to Arksulli
quote:... what about the Russian's ?
Afghanistan really is without worth.
Didn't they envision a pipeline for the natural gas (and a bit of oil)?
Posted on 8/28/21 at 8:13 am to awestruck
There was some thought but Afghanistan didn't have the infrastructure back then to support and after 45 years of war they don't have it now.
Posted on 9/3/21 at 8:39 pm to Arksulli
quote:
We, essentially, lost a war over a crack house. You have to really want that crack house to keep it.
Did we really lose ? not really we won all the battles but when the people you put in charge to run the country have no desire to rule it then you get this outcome .Taliban basically hid in the mountains for 20 years until US finally got tired of trying to prop up an army and government that could rule instead of taliban. We could have stayed a year, 5 years , 20 years or 100 years wouldn't have mattered with what the United states was working with.
I believe every person at the top believed this would be the outcome after a few years of seeing what a sorry excuse of an Army Afghanistan was building. Why do you think we stayed there for 20 years? To try and figure out what could be done to help these people rule and govern their own country and not be run by extremist. In the end they would rather live under extremist rule.
Page 1 of 1
Popular
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News