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Crusaders vs. ISIS. Are they comparable?
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:15 pm
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:15 pm
I'm a pretty liberal poster compared to most of y'all but the President made a comparison recently that really pissed me off so I'm going to vent.
In a recent speech on ISIS President Obama said:
As if to equate the actions of the Crusaders to those of the Jihadists in ISIS and say see "Christianity can be just as bad as Islam!"
What a load of horse shite.
The Crusades were as much political as they were religious. Begun in 1099 they were a response to centuries of violent Muslim expansion into Christian lands and an attempt to reconcile Western and Eastern Europe. On the face of it this all sounds religious but religious and civil authority were not separate in these days and the preeminent political leaders of the time and the leader of Western Europe were members of the church.
So yes, a Pope initiated the crusades and clothed them in a Christian veneer but they were as much about extending political power and protecting European culture as they were about religion. There were also important domestic concerns that fueled the crusades like the infighting between Christian leaders of the time that the Church wanted to quell so the Crusades provided an outlet. In this sense the President is right, the Crusaders did use Christianity, a religion that is overwhelmingly peaceful, as a false justification for a political war. Obama's error is in comparing that to what ISIS is doing.
ISIS on the other hand is almost purely religious. The only halfway political motivation you could point to is some kind of perverted Pan-Arabism and frustration with the Sykes Picot agreement that drew arbitrary borders across Arab lands. Other than that there isn't much. They have made it clear they want to establish a world caliphate. It's not a political movement with a religious cloak, it's about religion for them.
The Crusaders didn't want to conquer the world, they didn't want to "kill all heathens", they wanted to reclaim the "holy land" for Christianity and for the safety of Christian Pilgrims. Did they kill some Jews in the Rhine? Yes, but that was as much economic (German/French frustration with usurious Jewish money lenders) as it was about religion. The Crusaders didn't kill every non-Catholic they came into contact with. ISIS on the other hand kills everyone that isn't a radical salafi. Shitte? Secular Sunni? Yezidi? Copt? Jew? Assyrian? Alawite? They all must die.
So to end my rambling I'm really annoyed with the President's shitty historical analogy:
Hijacking Religion...: The Crusaders did "hijack" Christianity in the sense that they justified their wars in the name of Christ. Wars that were largely political and economic and went against the teachings of Christ. ISIS isn't hijacking Islam. Their approach is straight out of Islam, its early days and the actions of Mohammad. It's not the same thing.
...to commit horrible acts The actions of the Crusaders were tame compared to ISIS. They committed some atrocities but they were largely the exception while they are standard procedure for the genocidal jihadists in ISIS.
\end rant
In a recent speech on ISIS President Obama said:
quote:
"During the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ"
As if to equate the actions of the Crusaders to those of the Jihadists in ISIS and say see "Christianity can be just as bad as Islam!"
What a load of horse shite.
quote:
In the name of
The Crusades were as much political as they were religious. Begun in 1099 they were a response to centuries of violent Muslim expansion into Christian lands and an attempt to reconcile Western and Eastern Europe. On the face of it this all sounds religious but religious and civil authority were not separate in these days and the preeminent political leaders of the time and the leader of Western Europe were members of the church.
So yes, a Pope initiated the crusades and clothed them in a Christian veneer but they were as much about extending political power and protecting European culture as they were about religion. There were also important domestic concerns that fueled the crusades like the infighting between Christian leaders of the time that the Church wanted to quell so the Crusades provided an outlet. In this sense the President is right, the Crusaders did use Christianity, a religion that is overwhelmingly peaceful, as a false justification for a political war. Obama's error is in comparing that to what ISIS is doing.
ISIS on the other hand is almost purely religious. The only halfway political motivation you could point to is some kind of perverted Pan-Arabism and frustration with the Sykes Picot agreement that drew arbitrary borders across Arab lands. Other than that there isn't much. They have made it clear they want to establish a world caliphate. It's not a political movement with a religious cloak, it's about religion for them.
quote:
committed terrible deeds
The Crusaders didn't want to conquer the world, they didn't want to "kill all heathens", they wanted to reclaim the "holy land" for Christianity and for the safety of Christian Pilgrims. Did they kill some Jews in the Rhine? Yes, but that was as much economic (German/French frustration with usurious Jewish money lenders) as it was about religion. The Crusaders didn't kill every non-Catholic they came into contact with. ISIS on the other hand kills everyone that isn't a radical salafi. Shitte? Secular Sunni? Yezidi? Copt? Jew? Assyrian? Alawite? They all must die.
So to end my rambling I'm really annoyed with the President's shitty historical analogy:
Hijacking Religion...: The Crusaders did "hijack" Christianity in the sense that they justified their wars in the name of Christ. Wars that were largely political and economic and went against the teachings of Christ. ISIS isn't hijacking Islam. Their approach is straight out of Islam, its early days and the actions of Mohammad. It's not the same thing.
...to commit horrible acts The actions of the Crusaders were tame compared to ISIS. They committed some atrocities but they were largely the exception while they are standard procedure for the genocidal jihadists in ISIS.
\end rant
This post was edited on 2/19/15 at 7:20 pm
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:18 pm to KSGamecock
It should surprise nobody to see a Muslim deflect and divert criticism over other Muslims.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:21 pm to KSGamecock
I'm not going to defend the crusades and act like all Muslims are jihadists... But shut your whore mouth catfan.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:27 pm to 3nOut
quote:
I'm not going to defend the crusades and act like all Muslims are jihadists... But shut your whore mouth catfan.
I came off wrong. I'm not "defending" the crusades, I just think it's important to view them in the context in which they occurred. They were as much political as they were religious. While some Crusaders did some bad things I'm not going to just take Obama's statement at face value and as a Christian of European ancestry say "You're right Mr. President, the Crusaders were a bunch of 11th century ISIS type thugs so I guess Islam is pretty much the same as Christianity" because that's fricking wrong. He's trying to build and then play on White/Christian guilt but there shouldn't be any in this case.
I also don't think all Muslims are jihadists, clearly that isn't true. There are ~ 1 billion Muslims world wide and millions in America yet broadly speaking there isn't massive world turmoil. They aren't all terrorists.
This post was edited on 2/19/15 at 7:30 pm
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:28 pm to 3nOut
quote:
But shut your whore mouth catfan.
frick you, pendejo.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:29 pm to KSGamecock
Nonono.
You mistook a "shutup catfan " moment for the beginning of a legitimate argument. I was just setting it up for some debate and then posted the smartest thing I could have said.
You mistook a "shutup catfan " moment for the beginning of a legitimate argument. I was just setting it up for some debate and then posted the smartest thing I could have said.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:37 pm to KSGamecock
When some idiot on an internet message board brings up the Crusades in a half assed attempt to justify the behavior of whatever faction of dune baboons is in the news this week, I'm irritated at their ignorance.
When the President of the United States does it, I'm horrified.
When the President of the United States does it, I'm horrified.
This post was edited on 2/19/15 at 7:38 pm
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:39 pm to Vols&Shaft83
I normally try to avoid the strictly political topics, Obama stuff and what not but this brought out my inner scrooster.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:40 pm to KSGamecock
Just relax, two more years and Hillary will be president.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:43 pm to KSGamecock
I'm holding back, because what I want to say would result in permabannish for not only myself, but for everyone who upvotes it.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:51 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:Do it. I'll upvote and go down with you
I'm holding back, because what I want to say would result in permabannish for not only myself, but for everyone who upvotes it.

Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:54 pm to Vols&Shaft83
Aww, poor Shaft. He can dish it out but he can't take it.
Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:55 pm to Vols&Shaft83
I just had to post this on a night when both SH and CF were online. 

Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:55 pm to Stonehog
quote:What the crap
Aww, poor Shaft. He can dish it out but he can't take it.

Posted on 2/19/15 at 7:56 pm to Stonehog
quote:
Aww, poor Shaft. He can dish it out but he can't take it.
I can take it fine, just wondering when I ever brought up your personal life in one of the many insults I've hurled your way?
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