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Not to bring up possible bad feelings but. Recruiting
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:03 pm
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:03 pm
1. GP and company do an outstanding job developing talent and I haven't seen here anyone saying differently.
Now to my point. We are 0-4 in CCG's due to one reason and one reason only, talent. Not all 2 stars blossom and not all 4 stars go pro. Look at Bama and others. They have a roster full of recruits that cant hack it. But their depth in regards to talent is much, much better than ours.
We have played 16 quarters under Pinkel in CCG's.
Eight vs OU. The first two looked fantastic. The last six not so much.
Four against Auburn. 3 were good, one was bad.
Four vs Bama. None were good, Bama shot themselves in the foot over and over vs us. It really wasnt as close as the score said.
So in 11 of the 16 quarters we have been out manned. Thats not knocking our coaches or players, if you take it that way it is your problem not mine.
We need to step up recruiting. Im not pushing Gary out the door but I don't just want to get there, I want to win one or more.
No we don't run a system like Oregon. Not even close. Player development may be close but Oregon is far and beyond above us.
Now to my point. We are 0-4 in CCG's due to one reason and one reason only, talent. Not all 2 stars blossom and not all 4 stars go pro. Look at Bama and others. They have a roster full of recruits that cant hack it. But their depth in regards to talent is much, much better than ours.
We have played 16 quarters under Pinkel in CCG's.
Eight vs OU. The first two looked fantastic. The last six not so much.
Four against Auburn. 3 were good, one was bad.
Four vs Bama. None were good, Bama shot themselves in the foot over and over vs us. It really wasnt as close as the score said.
So in 11 of the 16 quarters we have been out manned. Thats not knocking our coaches or players, if you take it that way it is your problem not mine.
We need to step up recruiting. Im not pushing Gary out the door but I don't just want to get there, I want to win one or more.
No we don't run a system like Oregon. Not even close. Player development may be close but Oregon is far and beyond above us.
3
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:19 pm to Scooter McCooter
I don't think we were under manned in either 07 or 13. We just got beat. You play in a CCG, and you are going to play a very good team. You could easily lose if you don't play your A game, it happens. 08 and 14, yeah we weren't particularly close to OU or Bama.
We could certainly "recruit better", but on the same hand we win more games than a boatload of schools that "recruit better" so it's muddy waters. If anyone is waiting for a top 10 class, that just isn't going to happen.
What we need to do is just play our best game one of these times and we'll break through. Hopefully, that's next year.
We could certainly "recruit better", but on the same hand we win more games than a boatload of schools that "recruit better" so it's muddy waters. If anyone is waiting for a top 10 class, that just isn't going to happen.
What we need to do is just play our best game one of these times and we'll break through. Hopefully, that's next year.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:22 pm to JesusQuintana
Top 10, no. These coaches have shown they don't need top 10 classes. But there isn't anything wrong with hoping we finish around 15-20.
Personally I think we fall short with "mizzou made" not that its a bad idea. But that is all you are hanging your hat on, so it wont cut it.
Personally I think we fall short with "mizzou made" not that its a bad idea. But that is all you are hanging your hat on, so it wont cut it.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:26 pm to Scooter McCooter
I think top 25 yearly is a realistic goal. If we just landed a couple more highly ranked kids per year, we'd be there. We are also at a disadvantage in the rankings because we don't over sign at nearly the level most SEC schools do.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 9:56 pm to JesusQuintana
I love the job that GP's done and recognize that we're fortunate and better than a vast majority of schools out there.
Having said that, I think the numbers are pretty clear. If you want to play for a national championship, you better have some top 20 classes.
Having said that, I think the numbers are pretty clear. If you want to play for a national championship, you better have some top 20 classes.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 10:09 pm to JesusQuintana
Top 25 is probably realistic.
As for this years class, there will be 2 names that probably hold the class back a few spots no matter who else we sign.
Fatony...kickers just rarely if ever get more than 2* but I like the fact GP saw the need for one.
Owen...We'll probably always have a player like this. Bailey last year. Britt??? I think in the past. I'll trust that GP knows the home grown guys enough to know if they can play at this level.
As for this years class, there will be 2 names that probably hold the class back a few spots no matter who else we sign.
Fatony...kickers just rarely if ever get more than 2* but I like the fact GP saw the need for one.
Owen...We'll probably always have a player like this. Bailey last year. Britt??? I think in the past. I'll trust that GP knows the home grown guys enough to know if they can play at this level.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 10:09 pm to reedus23
This is always a sensitive subject but it is truly obvious for those being completely honest. Like others have said, I love how GP and co. put in that extra effort to find those players with a ton of potential and carefully develop them. Repeatedly, we have been able to overcome teams we "weren't supposed to beat." But to get to that next level, be elite more consistently, and win championships we just need to simply recruit better players. There is no way around it. Recruiting rankings are flawed but they are not worthless. People who try to act like having a top-20 or top-50 recruiting class doesn't make a significance difference are fooling themselves.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 10:58 pm to suisfaisetre
I think GP only has 5 years, tops left in him maybe Im wrong but its just how I feel.
I think Odom is the unofficial HCIW, age, recruting etc.... If we become a doormat for some reason then obviously not.
Alden has to put the screws to GP a little. GP is very loyal, in fact a little too loyal to his people. Alden doesn't press it so it never changes.
The SEC network is a boom, the revenue sharing is a boom. The stadium upgrades are smart....next step. Upgrading the position coaches. Outside of coach kool nobody should technically be safe IMO.
We didn't capitalize on 07 and really the same can be said recruiting wise for '13 and '14 but '13 is far better so far.
Im not saying we have to become dicks, particularly Alden but we have to become a little bit less of everyone best friend and a little more SEC.
I think Odom is the unofficial HCIW, age, recruting etc.... If we become a doormat for some reason then obviously not.
Alden has to put the screws to GP a little. GP is very loyal, in fact a little too loyal to his people. Alden doesn't press it so it never changes.
The SEC network is a boom, the revenue sharing is a boom. The stadium upgrades are smart....next step. Upgrading the position coaches. Outside of coach kool nobody should technically be safe IMO.
We didn't capitalize on 07 and really the same can be said recruiting wise for '13 and '14 but '13 is far better so far.
Im not saying we have to become dicks, particularly Alden but we have to become a little bit less of everyone best friend and a little more SEC.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 11:02 pm to Scooter McCooter
We won the 3rd qtr vs Bama. The only reason I bring it up is because I think a drastic improvement this season was our 2nd half performances. Whatever adjustments or pep talk we did at halftimes this year, seemed to be a major improvement. Ivey should get a lot of credit for our 4th quarters also. Anyway, I think this year was a big improvement for the coaching staff.
To recruit better, what suggestions are you making? Do you want to see staff changes, facility improvements, more fanbase engagement, etc? Just saying we need to recruit better isn't really starting a discussion. Nobody will argue that recruiting better is a bad idea.
To recruit better, what suggestions are you making? Do you want to see staff changes, facility improvements, more fanbase engagement, etc? Just saying we need to recruit better isn't really starting a discussion. Nobody will argue that recruiting better is a bad idea.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 11:08 pm to Tigersessed
Well you stated the obvious. I think its the elephant in the room, and its whatever pitch we use.
A good coach can recruit, develop and coach. Im not saying our coaches cant do neither. I think they are great at development and coaching.
In our 3 years we have been out recruited by doormats like Old Piss, Vandy (when Franklin was there) Arkansas and now Kentucky.
I find it hard to believe that there aren't any position coaches out there that cant do what we do and also recruit better. I don't know where Zook is at but he can recruit his arse off. If he isn't coaching currently, ST teams coach would be perfect for him cause he can't coach a lick anywhere else.
A good coach can recruit, develop and coach. Im not saying our coaches cant do neither. I think they are great at development and coaching.
In our 3 years we have been out recruited by doormats like Old Piss, Vandy (when Franklin was there) Arkansas and now Kentucky.
I find it hard to believe that there aren't any position coaches out there that cant do what we do and also recruit better. I don't know where Zook is at but he can recruit his arse off. If he isn't coaching currently, ST teams coach would be perfect for him cause he can't coach a lick anywhere else.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 11:18 pm to Scooter McCooter
Zook can recruit. What position coach position would you eliminate to hire a ST coach? Normally there are not enough coaching spots in college to hire a ST coach specifically.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 11:25 pm to Scooter McCooter
I think the continuity is a big part of why what we do works. A lot of people simply say recruit better, but refuse to take into account many factors.
Our facilities aren't good. Our fanbase is relatively small. Our donations/budget are relatively small. We don't sell out many games. Our history isn't great. Missouri doesn't produce that much high end talent, etc
Also, you have to take into account the inherent bias in the rankings.
Now, I realize there are certainly some outliers but consider this...did anyone think that Kentucky, Vandy or Ole Miss were more talented than us when we played them? I sure as hell didn't.
Recruiting is very important, but the other areas are just as if not more so.
We could do a little bit better though. I agree.
Our facilities aren't good. Our fanbase is relatively small. Our donations/budget are relatively small. We don't sell out many games. Our history isn't great. Missouri doesn't produce that much high end talent, etc
Also, you have to take into account the inherent bias in the rankings.
Now, I realize there are certainly some outliers but consider this...did anyone think that Kentucky, Vandy or Ole Miss were more talented than us when we played them? I sure as hell didn't.
Recruiting is very important, but the other areas are just as if not more so.
We could do a little bit better though. I agree.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 12:31 am to Tigersessed
What if Pinkel hired an position coach from Alabama, LSU, Auburn or T A&M and promote him to assistant head coach just for their recruiting prowess. I think that their assistant coaches would understand. Pinkel is too loyal and stubborn to do that.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 2:42 am to Zou brownmajic
quote:Which coach would you replace? Which coach would you hire? I'm always interested in ways to improve the team.
What if Pinkel hired an position coach from Alabama, LSU, Auburn or T A&M and promote him to assistant head coach just for their recruiting prowess. I think that their assistant coaches would understand. Pinkel is too loyal and stubborn to do that.
quote:
promote him to assistant head coach just for their recruiting prowess. I think that their assistant coaches would understand
I'm assuming you would give the asst coach title so that you can justify paying him more money to get him to make a lateral move to Mizzou? Is that correct or is there something I'm missing? The title by itself doesn't mean anything.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 4:59 am to Tigersessed
quote:
Zook can recruit. What position coach position would you eliminate to hire a ST coach? Normally there are not enough coaching spots in college to hire a ST coach specifically.
Is there a limit on the number of coaches a team is allowed? If not, create a position.
Also, we have a "recruiting coordinator" who apparently doesn't actually recruit. Is this a potential missed opportunity? A horse and buggy remnant of XII thinking? Or maybe most schools have a recruiting coordinator who's not out there closing deals.
Here's another question... Do we have a coach / recruiter with an SEC background yet? Does it make a difference, even a little - and that's what we're talking about here, just adding a couple of extra top rated kids per class - when talking to southern kids to have someone who's from their area? I don't know.
I like Pinkel's idea of upgrading the south end zone for the WOW factor that's lacking. Maybe adding a proven SEC-style recruiting closer is one of the final steps needed.
I'm enjoying this discussion.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 5:04 am to Mizz-SEC
Wasn't henson a coach at Lsu maybe I'm wrong but thought he was our in for the south. I don't know on the whole how many coaches you can have hell make who ever co recruiting if that's what it would take.
I agree very good topics being brought up in this.
I agree very good topics being brought up in this.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 7:28 am to Mizz-SEC
Does anyone know what a recruiting coordinator is tasked with? I'm not sure they are generally a 'closer' in the recruiting end-seems that's more of the HC's duty.
We have Henson and Washington with SEC ties. We also now have Odom with some inroads in the south, or at least the mid south.
I think the biggest thing, from comments I've heard along the way, is our facilities. I think that's why GP lobbied to get started on the south end zone/locker room upgrade before the new practice facilities. I also think a part of it is that we just don't lie to kids, or over recruit. I also think the recruiting rankings are a bit over blown. Yeah, the teams that win the NCs and conference championships generally finish high in those rankings-but those are the same blue blood schools that win every year. Other schools that some like to point to as finishing high in the rankings from outside the blue bloods haven't won squat. I'd be more impressed with that argument if those other schools were actually winning something.
We have Henson and Washington with SEC ties. We also now have Odom with some inroads in the south, or at least the mid south.
I think the biggest thing, from comments I've heard along the way, is our facilities. I think that's why GP lobbied to get started on the south end zone/locker room upgrade before the new practice facilities. I also think a part of it is that we just don't lie to kids, or over recruit. I also think the recruiting rankings are a bit over blown. Yeah, the teams that win the NCs and conference championships generally finish high in those rankings-but those are the same blue blood schools that win every year. Other schools that some like to point to as finishing high in the rankings from outside the blue bloods haven't won squat. I'd be more impressed with that argument if those other schools were actually winning something.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 8:06 am to tobythetiger
To state the two obvious things.
1. I think that GP has done a fine job recruiting and then developing.
2. I think there is always room to improve, including in the recruiting department.
One of the biggest things is facilities. Ours would probably be upper half, maybe upper third in the Big 12. In the SEC, it's bottom 3rd. So there needs to be some perspective with that. Having said that, the dept. obviously understands the need and thus the reason we just underwent some pretty major renovations and are starting more on the south end.
Another area is in atmosphere. The Zou can compete with nearly any atmosphere for the big game or when Game Day shows up. The goal has to be how do we approach those levels for UK or UConn or even SEMO.
As for the coaching staff, Henson comes from an SEC background and I believe is one of the reasons that we've actually seen more offers into Louisiana and Mississippi and Alabama the last couple of years. We're still obviously making inroads into Georgia and Florida, but unlike the first year or so, I've seen what I believe is Henson's influence with more offers in these other states.
Washington (WR coach) also has an SEC background, having spent time at Auburn (player and GA), La-Lafayette (WR), Tennessee (WR), Southern Miss (RB) and Kentucky (WR). He also spent some time in Texas at TCU and Baylor which isn't a bad thing.
As for GP being too loyal...yes and no. I certainly think there have been times where he has been, but then you also have him hiring Henson as OC (not just a position coach) over any of his long timers. Washington wasn't one of his buddies. I suppose Odom could be said to be a matter of loyalty, though I think it was just a perfect storm of a Mizzou guy who also happened to be highly sought after by others. If it were a matter of just loyalty though, I suspect he would have promoted Coach Kul and hired a new position coach.
1. I think that GP has done a fine job recruiting and then developing.
2. I think there is always room to improve, including in the recruiting department.
One of the biggest things is facilities. Ours would probably be upper half, maybe upper third in the Big 12. In the SEC, it's bottom 3rd. So there needs to be some perspective with that. Having said that, the dept. obviously understands the need and thus the reason we just underwent some pretty major renovations and are starting more on the south end.
Another area is in atmosphere. The Zou can compete with nearly any atmosphere for the big game or when Game Day shows up. The goal has to be how do we approach those levels for UK or UConn or even SEMO.
As for the coaching staff, Henson comes from an SEC background and I believe is one of the reasons that we've actually seen more offers into Louisiana and Mississippi and Alabama the last couple of years. We're still obviously making inroads into Georgia and Florida, but unlike the first year or so, I've seen what I believe is Henson's influence with more offers in these other states.
Washington (WR coach) also has an SEC background, having spent time at Auburn (player and GA), La-Lafayette (WR), Tennessee (WR), Southern Miss (RB) and Kentucky (WR). He also spent some time in Texas at TCU and Baylor which isn't a bad thing.
As for GP being too loyal...yes and no. I certainly think there have been times where he has been, but then you also have him hiring Henson as OC (not just a position coach) over any of his long timers. Washington wasn't one of his buddies. I suppose Odom could be said to be a matter of loyalty, though I think it was just a perfect storm of a Mizzou guy who also happened to be highly sought after by others. If it were a matter of just loyalty though, I suspect he would have promoted Coach Kul and hired a new position coach.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 8:54 am to Mizz-SEC
Some schools will have an actual coach tabbed with the recruiting coordinator title, but the duties really have nothing to do with actually recruiting. It's more logistics. Scheduling activities during visits, compliance issues, etc.
Id rather have our coaches tasked with coaching and recruiting only. They have enough on their plate.
Id rather have our coaches tasked with coaching and recruiting only. They have enough on their plate.
Posted on 1/12/15 at 9:04 am to reedus23
1. GP is fine. Not the best, but the best we will get.
2. CCG's have been on Stec. Love the guy, but he never adjusted his gameplan for the teams we played. When Auburn ran for days on us, it was because we were still 10 yards off the ball. The good teams/coaches realize this and pounded us.
3. Football facilities blow. Compared to the "elite" programs, our facilities look like garbage.
4. Our fanbase sucks. We are the 18th in population in the US. We have 1 major university in our state. There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be at capacity every game. Mississippi has less than half of what our state does, and they support 2 major universities.
5. Mizzou does need a tailgate central. Somewhere like "the Grove"
2. CCG's have been on Stec. Love the guy, but he never adjusted his gameplan for the teams we played. When Auburn ran for days on us, it was because we were still 10 yards off the ball. The good teams/coaches realize this and pounded us.
3. Football facilities blow. Compared to the "elite" programs, our facilities look like garbage.
4. Our fanbase sucks. We are the 18th in population in the US. We have 1 major university in our state. There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be at capacity every game. Mississippi has less than half of what our state does, and they support 2 major universities.
5. Mizzou does need a tailgate central. Somewhere like "the Grove"
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