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Posted on 4/16/13 at 10:59 pm to Cheese Grits
I understand where you are coming from now. Engie is still an idiot but you at least make valid points. I understand everything about the basketball power houses in that area. Just hard for me to see any basketball rivalry over taking Duke/UNC.
Posted on 4/16/13 at 11:23 pm to WAOMrebears
quote:
Just hard for me to see any basketball rivalry over taking Duke/UNC.
I am guessing it is because you are young and do not remember when the ACC was not the basketball powerhouse. There was a time when Kentucky vs Indiana was the rival. Of the Top 10 non conference regular season games the UK vs IU game occupies like 7 of the 10 spots. Back in the days of the Hoosier Dome and the Big 4 (UK, IU, UL, and Purdue or Notre Dame) you were seeing the massive crowds that now are common at NCAA Final Four games.
NC State brought basketball to the ACC and the long term rivalry for Tobacco Road was UNC vs NC State. Prior to coach K at Duke the Blue Devils were a 3rd or fourth wheel behind UNC, NC State, Maryland, and the floater. Look at the Dandy Diamond and the 4 schools at each point and all 4 are a quick drive to each other.
Kentucky = 8 NCAA banners - quick drive to UL and UC. Drive to IU is about 3 hours
Indiana = 5 NCAA banners
Louisville = 3 NCAA banners - hour drive to UK, 1.5 hour drive to Cincy, and 2 hour drive to IU
Cincinnati = 2 NCAA banners
The Michigan schools are a straight shot up I - 75 and Ohio State is about 3 hours from UK
Michigan State = 2 NCAA banners
Michigan = 1 NCAA banner
Ohio State = 1 NCAA banner
Posted on 4/16/13 at 11:32 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
(2) North Carolina State - 2 different coaches! - Elite program status confirmed
1983 Jim Valvano
1974 Norm Sloan
You're calling a school that hasn't won a championship in 30 years and hasn't been past the Sweet 16 since 1986, when most of this board hadn't even been born yet, an elite program? They had a nice little run from '74-'86 but they definitely aren't an elite program
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:01 am to TheCheshireHog
quote:
They had a nice little run from '74-'86 but they definitely aren't an elite program
Are they in the same company as UK and UNC?
The answer is no
Are they ahead of 80 - 90 percent of all NCAA Division I college basketball programs?
The answer is yes
Keep in mind that it was Everett Case who brought basketball to Tobacco Road in the first place and he was the coach at NC State - not Duke or UNC. From the 1950's to present day the Wolfpack have made the Sweet 16 every decade except the 1990's and their last Sweet 16 was 2012 and their first conference championship dates back to 1929. I am pretty sure they are in the Top 25 all time for wins which puts them near the top but not at the top.
They had at least 3 legendary coaches
Everette Case : 1946 to 1965
Norm Sloane : 1967 - 1980
Jim Valvano : 1980 - 1990
They play in an arena that seats close to 20,000 and could easily fill the void if Duke fails beyond coach K.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 7:30 am to Bamatab
quote:
The fact that they have asked the B1G commissioner and the president of the AAU to be on this panel to discuss the role of athletics at UNC has me a little concerned that the B1G might have the inside track on getting UNC.
Delany is also on the GAA board of directors at UNC
LINK
Posted on 4/17/13 at 8:41 am to Cheese Grits
I found the formula w/ weighting that they will use to evaluate new teams for expansion....
F (50%) + TV (50%) + OS (0%) = X
F = Football value
TV = new television households
OS = value of all non-football sports (basketball, baseball, tennis, fencing, t&f, etc.)
X = score for expansion consideration
F (50%) + TV (50%) + OS (0%) = X
F = Football value
TV = new television households
OS = value of all non-football sports (basketball, baseball, tennis, fencing, t&f, etc.)
X = score for expansion consideration
Posted on 4/17/13 at 9:30 am to Cheese Grits
Troll on troller
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:09 pm to winyahpercy
quote:
F (50%) + TV (50%) + OS (0%) = X
Nice attempt at humor there but as the new Catholic 7 contract shows there is solid money for basketball only schools. The bigger issue on basketball money is the 2 revenue streams not often discussed.
#1 - the Tier III contracts
Of the Top 5 Tier III contracts 4 of the 5 are schools with basketball programs and 3 of those 4 are primarily basketball schools (Kentucky, North Carolina, and Kansas) with little or no football success. Even when the LHN deal wade waves with the dollars Texas was getting it was still only just close to even to what UNC was getting for their Tier III from a contract that was already 5 - 10 years old at the time.
LHN = 15 million per year - 4 million per year to IMG = 11 million net for 2013 - 2014
UNC = 11.2 million per year in 2009 - 2010 LINK
Here were the Top 5 from the above link
1 University of North Carolina - basketball school
2 University of Alabama - football school
3 University of Kentucky - basketball school
4 University of Florida - both
5 University of Kansas - basketball school
#2 - breakaway values for the super conferences
From the 1950's to the 1980's the NCAA had monopoly power on the media values for college football. The formation of the CFA and the Supreme Court decision in favor of Oklahoma and Georgia ended that monopoly. In short the conferences and schools became free agents and negotiated their own deals and kept the money.
Fast forward to a similar situation in basketball if the Top 48 - 72 schools in the country break away and form their own NCAA and all that March Madness money flows to say the SEC instead of the NCAA. College basketball is a billion dollar + earner and UK is a primary earner for the NCAA. If suddenly those revenue streams flowed into the SEC you are looking at top basketball schools with the same values as upper level football schools.
This might be a more reasonable formula :
CFB (40%) + TV (30%) + MCBB (20%) + OS (10%) = X
CFB = Football value
TV = new television households
MCBB = Basketball value
OS = value of all non-football sports (women's basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, gymnastics, tennis, fencing, t&f, etc.)
X = score for expansion consideration
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:10 pm to Cheese Grits
have seen a lot of talk about UNC and dook being tied at the hip...this idea has been WAY overblown, IMO...while they do work closely and tend to vote together in ACC matters, UNC will not tie themselves to the sinking blue devil ship during expansion...it wouldn't be difficult to schedule them OOC in basketball like UK/UL do
the underrated "partner" that would be key to moving UNC (and who UNC is supposedly working with behind closed doors) is UVa...the rumors on UNC boards are that UNC/UVa have reached out to B1G/SEC as landing spots should the ACC fall...apparently UVa prefers the B1G over the SEC, and the opposite is true for UNC (although not in the landslide that is felt amongst donors/fanbase)...this is why Delany is pushing hard for UVa to try to get Carolina to move, and for this reason (along with the academic angle) I could see UNC making the massive mistake of moving to the B1G
but this is all a moot point as long as the ACC doesn't lose any more significant members...UNC will not make the first move to kill the ACC...I think there is hope that the SEC would be the choice now that there's an AD and chancellor that were recently hired outside of the UNC system....it sure seems that Bubba Cunningham prefers the SEC over other options...it would be a slap in the face to what Mike Fox has done with the baseball program over the last decade to kill that program by relegating them to the B1G
the underrated "partner" that would be key to moving UNC (and who UNC is supposedly working with behind closed doors) is UVa...the rumors on UNC boards are that UNC/UVa have reached out to B1G/SEC as landing spots should the ACC fall...apparently UVa prefers the B1G over the SEC, and the opposite is true for UNC (although not in the landslide that is felt amongst donors/fanbase)...this is why Delany is pushing hard for UVa to try to get Carolina to move, and for this reason (along with the academic angle) I could see UNC making the massive mistake of moving to the B1G
but this is all a moot point as long as the ACC doesn't lose any more significant members...UNC will not make the first move to kill the ACC...I think there is hope that the SEC would be the choice now that there's an AD and chancellor that were recently hired outside of the UNC system....it sure seems that Bubba Cunningham prefers the SEC over other options...it would be a slap in the face to what Mike Fox has done with the baseball program over the last decade to kill that program by relegating them to the B1G
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:23 pm to 4LifeTarHeel4Life
Good to have a Tar Heel in the thread. My read on the ACC politics is that UNC and UVA are the major powerbrokers of the conference. Few questions if you don't mind:
(a) Is that right?
(b) If so, are UNC and UVA more rivalrous or collusive? (Trying to get a feel on whether they'd move to the same conference, whether B1G or SEC)
(c) Would UVA make the first move to kill the ACC?
((Other knowledgeable guys in the thread -- engie and Cheese Grits come to mind -- are more than welcome to chime in too, but I was curious for the Tar Heel take))
(a) Is that right?
(b) If so, are UNC and UVA more rivalrous or collusive? (Trying to get a feel on whether they'd move to the same conference, whether B1G or SEC)
(c) Would UVA make the first move to kill the ACC?
((Other knowledgeable guys in the thread -- engie and Cheese Grits come to mind -- are more than welcome to chime in too, but I was curious for the Tar Heel take))
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:48 pm to lsutothetop
quote:
Good to have a Tar Heel in the thread. My read on the ACC politics is that UNC and UVA are the major powerbrokers of the conference. Few questions if you don't mind:
(a) Is that right?
(b) If so, are UNC and UVA more rivalrous or collusive? (Trying to get a feel on whether they'd move to the same conference, whether B1G or SEC)
(c) Would UVA make the first move to kill the ACC?
A - I would say traditionally it's been UNC, UVa, and dook as the big power brokers, but FSU and Clemson have a great deal of sway of late given the league's seemingly "weak" standing. However, it seems most other ACC schools (particularly NCSt administrators and fans) seem to believe that the ACC/UNC have a Texas/Big12 relationship.....
B - Probably both, though the rise of Va Tech has cooled the UNC/UVa rivalry, it is still pretty intense for older fans of each. The football series is actually called "The South's Oldest Rivalry" though I'm sure Auburn/UGa fans would have something to say about that.
C - Yes. If it came to pass, I don't think UNC would want to publicly appear to make the move to kill the ACC. I think if UNC, FSU, UVa, or GT were to make a move elsewhere, it would lead to the eventual collapse of the conference. Of course, other schools would have options, but it seems like those 4 either have open invites to join other conferences (UNC/UVA/GT) or appear motivated to look at other options (FSU).
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:53 pm to 4LifeTarHeel4Life
quote:
have seen a lot of talk about UNC and dook being tied at the hip...this idea has been WAY overblown, IMO...while they do work closely and tend to vote together in ACC matters, UNC will not tie themselves to the sinking blue devil ship during expansion...it wouldn't be difficult to schedule them OOC in basketball like UK/UL do
Exactly. Been saying this for months here -- with the vast majority here arguing the point to the grave. Where you at, WAOMrebears?
quote:
the underrated "partner" that would be key to moving UNC (and who UNC is supposedly working with behind closed doors) is UVa...the rumors on UNC boards are that UNC/UVa have reached out to B1G/SEC as landing spots should the ACC fall...apparently UVa prefers the B1G over the SEC, and the opposite is true for UNC (although not in the landslide that is felt amongst donors/fanbase)...this is why Delany is pushing hard for UVa to try to get Carolina to move, and for this reason (along with the academic angle) I could see UNC making the massive mistake of moving to the B1G
Exactly what I've(and several others with an eye for history here) have been saying all along. UVA and UNC are the package deal -- not UNC and DUKE. The South's Oldest Rivalry takes precedent over a 25 year basketball rivalry in an otherwise completely dominated series. The B1G has an "in" with Delany's ties to UNC, a school that from all appearances would prefer to be in the SEC -- while the SEC has an "in" with Slive's ties to UVA, a school that from most appearances would prefer to be in the B1G(although I, admittedly, haven't followed the situation from a UVA angle nearly as closely as I have from UNC...
quote:
but this is all a moot point as long as the ACC doesn't lose any more significant members...UNC will not make the first move to kill the ACC...I think there is hope that the SEC would be the choice now that there's an AD and chancellor that were recently hired outside of the UNC system....it sure seems that Bubba Cunningham prefers the SEC over other options...it would be a slap in the face to what Mike Fox has done with the baseball program over the last decade to kill that program by relegating them to the B1G
Yep. As I've said all along -- UNC won't be the one that kills the ACC -- but they aren't going to sink with the ship either.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 12:58 pm to lsutothetop
I also would like to know the tie that UNC and NCSU have, being that NCSU is in the UNC system. Would UNC have enough votes to block the Pack from the SEC till UNC had a guaranteed spot in the Big 10?
But my wish is the same as many and want UVA and UNC.
Really anyone but VT.
But my wish is the same as many and want UVA and UNC.
Really anyone but VT.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 1:01 pm to lsutothetop
quote:
Other knowledgeable guys in the thread -- engie and Cheese Grits come to mind -- are more than welcome to chime in too, but I was curious for the Tar Heel take
My questions are more based just on UNC
a) Are you an alumni as well as a fan? Are you older (and may be more in line with big donors and power brokers) or younger?
b) If academics has not hurt Georgia, Florida, and Vanderbilt (and now Missouri and TAMU) is there really a competitive edge in a B1G invite? I hear the B1G folks touting the CIC all the time but their budget is only around 1 million a year which seems pretty paltry for such an impressive operation?
c) If UNC and UVA do jump to the B1G it pretty much places NC State and VPI in the SEC. As Georgia surpassed Georgia Tech, South Carolina surpassed Clemson, and now TAMU is poised to close the gap on the longhorns would either of those schools really open that pandora's box making the B1G jump?
d) What is your favorite Tar Heel / ACC blogs to follow? Specifically ones where the discussions are best and well reasoned when it comes to realignment and not gossip like the WVU / "the dude" type folks who are just throwing anything out to see what sticks?
Thanks
Posted on 4/17/13 at 1:21 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
a) Are you an alumni as well as a fan? Are you older (and may be more in line with big donors and power brokers) or younger?
current student, but dad and granddad are also alumni
quote:
b) If academics has not hurt Georgia, Florida, and Vanderbilt (and now Missouri and TAMU) is there really a competitive edge in a B1G invite? I hear the B1G folks touting the CIC all the time but their budget is only around 1 million a year which seems pretty paltry for such an impressive operation?
overplayed, more about reputation for the academic type, esp. after the recent football scandal they dont want to align themselves or associate with a conference with a reputation of big football, cheating, do whatever it takes to win (however fair that may or may not be)
quote:
c) If UNC and UVA do jump to the B1G it pretty much places NC State and VPI in the SEC. As Georgia surpassed Georgia Tech, South Carolina surpassed Clemson, and now TAMU is poised to close the gap on the longhorns would either of those schools really open that pandora's box making the B1G jump?
a lot of the football fans are worried about this, others aren't, ultimately i don't think this would be a huge factor in the decision as the academics at UNC dont care about athletics, and some of those who care about athletics only care about basketball which likely wouldnt be hurt, and even some who care about football argue that NCSU would never eclipse us (pride comes before the fall right?)
quote:
d) What is your favorite Tar Heel / ACC blogs to follow? Specifically ones where the discussions are best and well reasoned when it comes to realignment and not gossip like the WVU / "the dude" type folks who are just throwing anything out to see what sticks?
Inside Carolina is far and away the best, you need a subscription to view the premium message boards but the free boards are still pretty good
Posted on 4/17/13 at 1:42 pm to engie
quote:
Yep. As I've said all along -- UNC won't be the one that kills the ACC -- but they aren't going to sink with the ship either.
exactly... but there are rumors that the B10 has put the word out that GT, UVA and UVA are all viable choices for expansion, but there are only 2 spots available... so someone is going to get left out. UNC would be fine w/ the status quo, but they can't risk staying in the ACC and GT and UVA leaving.... UNC is the crown jewel for Delaney, and he's playing a strategic game to get them, that include picking off UMd to put blood in the water. UMd leaving got UVa's attention. UVa being shaky makes UNC shaky. And GT is the pawn but is also a realistic option. And ND making the deal w/ the ACC is what set this all off.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 1:58 pm to winyahpercy
quote:
exactly... but there are rumors that the B10 has put the word out that GT, UVA and UVA are all viable choices for expansion, but there are only 2 spots available... so someone is going to get left out. UNC would be fine w/ the status quo, but they can't risk staying in the ACC and GT and UVA leaving.... UNC is the crown jewel for Delaney, and he's playing a strategic game to get them, that include picking off UMd to put blood in the water. UMd leaving got UVa's attention. UVa being shaky makes UNC shaky. And GT is the pawn but is also a realistic option. And ND making the deal w/ the ACC is what set this all off.
UNC, UVA, Duke, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami, Virginia and Virginia Tech are a solid core for a conference. It seems silly that they want to leave eachother. They shouldn't have gona stir crazy and added teams, but meh. I think they survive.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 2:14 pm to TeLeFaWx
Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Texas Tech, Texas Christian, Texas A&M, & Texas were a solid core for a conference too.
Posted on 4/17/13 at 3:06 pm to winyahpercy
quote:
Baylor, Houston, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St., Texas Tech, Texas Christian, Texas A&M, & Texas were a solid core for a conference too
I might amend your list to:
TAMU - large public university = #2 in TX
Nebraska - lone flagship = #1 in NE
Missouri - lone flagship = #1 in MO
Colorado - lone flagship = #1 in CO
Oklahoma - lone flagship = #1 in OK
Texas - large public university = #1 in TX
Were the solid core of the Big 12 as all were in the top half of the conference. Kansas / Missouri may have been interchangeable but these schools were all below the cutoff
Oklahoma State = #2 in OK
Kansas State = #2 in KS
Texas Tech = #3 in Texas
Iowa State = #2 in Iowa
Baylor = #4 - #6 in Texas (depending on how you view them in relation to say SMU / TCU / Rice / Houston / ??)
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