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re: AU board OT
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:53 pm to kage
Posted on 11/6/20 at 2:53 pm to kage
quote:
Countries that have adopted less punitive policies
toward drug possession have not experienced any
significant increases in drug use, drug-related harm or
crime relative to more punitive countries. A World
Health Organization study, for example, found that the
U.S. had the highest lifetime drug use rates by a wide
margin, despite its punitive policies – concluding that
decriminalization has little or no effect on rates of use.
That is really interesting. It almost sounds too good to be true. Or hard to believe anyway. It is almost like saying, If I have been punishing my kids for something they have been doing and I just decide not to punish them for it anymore, they will stop doing it. Or sorta like that.
It just does not sound logical that if a certain population of people are using drugs illegally and we decide to make them legal, we wont have a increase in usage. Now I totally get the Drug Cartel part but I dont trust people enough to think they would not abuse it if it were not illegal and readily available.
In my mind, its more of a human nature issue than a legal/illegal issue. When I was in Colorado a few years back, I saw more pot than I have in my entire life all together. People smoking at the bus stop at Lake Dillon 8:00 in the morning.
And I wont even get into the Red Rocks concert that night. It just feels like if you take the restraints off something people are already doing, they will be more likely to do it and overdo it as a result.
Im sure its just my old mind
1
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:09 pm to LanierSpots
quote:
That is really interesting. It almost sounds too good to be true. Or hard to believe anyway. It is almost like saying, If I have been punishing my kids for something they have been doing and I just decide not to punish them for it anymore, they will stop doing it. Or sorta like that.
From a psychological stand point, that is pretty common though. You tell somebody they can't do something, the first they are going to do, is that thing.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:28 pm to LanierSpots
quote:Again that sounds a lot like them tea'totaling dames forcing prohibition and that didn't stop people from drinking. On the contrary (jus like drug laws) it just made them drink rot gut, do it more in private, and forced them to associate with the known criminal element.
My main reason for keeping them illegal is because people in general are weak and stupid. They dont have the ability to use things recreational without going over. When you give access to things that are more addictive, more people will get addicted to them. Then they end up in a place where everyone else is forced to pay for their clean up.
People who dont have the means or strength to take care of their own problems, become the responsibility of everyone else. Its our system now on a lot of things. We dont need to add legal access to things that will make it worse.
Maybe less drank, I don't know, but at what cost to personal freedom and liberty? And to me, IMO, certain people are going to look for ways of escapism. If only to ease their pains.
Plus I'd much rather hire a nightly pot smoker than a nightly drunk. Because I know which one will function better the next day on the job, in a car, and which will (generally) have the least heath problems.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:46 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
From a psychological stand point, that is pretty common though. You tell somebody they can't do something, the first they are going to do, is that thing.
But I think you are confusing breaking the law and defiance. If we use that logic, why punish anyone for anything? Why have laws? No need to put someone in jail for murder, if there is no punishment, they wont do it. Drop all the speeding tickets, people will slow down.
The reason there are laws is because people need them. Humans need limits. Limits that they can not control themselves. It is why we are policed. We are not smart enough to function in a society without those boundaries and with boundaries, come consequences if those boundaries are broken.
The info Kage put up is intersting. Now I have never been to Portugal and really dont know nothing about it but I would be pretty confident that if you lower the penalties for drugs in Detroit or Atlanta or a few of the other big cites, the drug problem would not get better.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 3:58 pm to LanierSpots
quote:
But I think you are confusing breaking the law and defiance. If we use that logic, why punish anyone for anything? Why have laws? No need to put someone in jail for murder, if there is no punishment, they wont do it. Drop all the speeding tickets, people will slow down.
I mean, if we are going to just take things to their logical extreme, sure. However, most people aren't going to not murder someone just because there is a law against it. Would there people that would if the law is done away with? Sure, but the existence of that law is not the primary determining factor on why most people don't murder another person.
When it comes to legal actions though, the psychological reference I made plays much more into the extent someone does something with like drugs or alcohol. Very similar to the basis around not allowing alcohol sales in the stadium. What we see is that people will grossly over use alcohol before games because of this. The places that have changed and allowed the sales, they've noticed a consistent more reasonable drinking scene and less binge drinking.
quote:
The reason there are laws is because people need them. Humans need limits. Limits that they can not control themselves.
The problem with this reasoning is you are inserting yourself into someone else's life. Again taking things to a logical extreme, but based on this reasoning, we should have laws regulating just how much someone can eat.
quote:
The info Kage put up is intersting. Now I have never been to Portugal and really dont know nothing about it but I would be pretty confident that if you lower the penalties for drugs in Detroit or Atlanta or a few of the other big cites, the drug problem would not get better.
Which drug problem are we talking about though? If we are talking about just using drugs, maybe and maybe not. If we are talking about the violence and culture that surrounds it, yes it would absolutely improve over time.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:27 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
When it comes to legal actions though, the psychological reference I made plays much more into the extent someone does something with like drugs or alcohol. V
I believe the psychological reference you made deals more with defiance than this type of activity (drug/Alcohol use) If I tell my kid not to pitch a fit, they may be more likely to do so because they are being defiant than really wanting to do it. That is a very different thing than someone wanting to smoke pot to get high or drink alcohol to get drunk. People do those activities for the results of them. Not because someone told them not to.
I get the extremism of my examples but the logic behind them is solid. We all need boundaries. And with drug use, it has so many variables that are uncontrollable. Drugs in general are addictive which makes it hard for us to stop.
I was not talking about the violence of drug use in cities but just the overall usage. Plus the cost of the ramifications of that drug use falls on the hands of more people who dont use them. Uninsured trips to the ER. Happens every day at my wife's hospital.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:40 pm to LanierSpots
quote:
People do those activities for the results of them. Not because someone told them not to.
It is absolutely both. People break the law for the thrill of breaking the law. This is known. That doesn't mean everyone is doing it for that reason or it is even the primary, but there is a level to everyone that does that illegally, that is because they shouldn't be doing it. When you take away that aspect of it, the overuse side of it seems to go down. You don't have people abusing it as much.
quote:
I get the extremism of my examples but the logic behind them is solid. We all need boundaries. And with drug use, it has so many variables that are uncontrollable. Drugs in general are addictive which makes it hard for us to stop.
A lot of things are addictive that aren't illegal. Food itself is addictive. Again, by your own example, you should be all for laws limiting the amount of food a person can eat. Something like weed does not do any harm to anyone in any other way than alcohol does. If abused, it can be a detriment, but used responsibly it does nothing.
There are other drugs that we can have a different discussion on, because they truly are a detrimental drug that there is no "responsible" use of.
quote:
Plus the cost of the ramifications of that drug use falls on the hands of more people who dont use them. Uninsured trips to the ER. Happens every day at my wife's hospital.
This goes back to my point on the abuse of usage with the alcohol sales. When stadiums started allowing alcohol sales, they started seeing less issues with alcohol, less people needing medical attention, etc.
I'm not for legalizing every single drug under the planet, but multiple studies have shown that legalizing weed did not lead to an increase in any type of issues from usage abuse.
This post was edited on 11/6/20 at 4:42 pm
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:45 pm to LanierSpots
On a different note regarding this subject...pot stocks have been trading with high volumesince Biden has been presumed to win.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:49 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
I'm not for legalizing every single drug under the planet, but multiple studies have shown that legalizing weed did not lead to an increase in any type of issues from usage abuse.
yea, my argument is not necessarily for pot. I could honestly care less about that. Ive done it numerous times and prefer alcohol myself but that is just me. I know it has some good effects but I do believe it the old saying of it being a "gateway" drug. LOL.
Going down that road opens up to a point where boundaries will once again need to be made. If we allow Pot, and now shrooms, whats next? And who decides?
Heroin? Crack? LSD?
I dont know the answer to that one. But human nature says people will push that boundary.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 4:52 pm to LanierSpots
I gotcha. Yea the harder drugs it is a much more complex discussion. Fortunately we will have at least one case study over the next few years that we can learn from out west.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:15 pm to LanierSpots
quote:
I do believe it the old saying of it being a "gateway" drug.
If a gateway drug is a substance you take before you start taking the shite that kills you quick, wouldn't alcohol be the king of gateway drugs?
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:20 pm to Awesome Dave
Alcohol is the gateway to what? .
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:37 pm to jangalang
I think he is saying alcohol is the gateway to all recreational drugs. Basically, it is probably the first mind altering substance someone takes before they explore into other mind altering substances.
I’m assuming that is his argument.
I’m assuming that is his argument.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:40 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
Thanks. Why is pot considered the quintessential gateway drug that leads to other more hard core drugs? Why isn't it alcohol? I would analogize the effects of alcohol more closely to those of dangerous opiates than I would marijuana. But that's just personal experience.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:42 pm to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
I think he is saying alcohol is the gateway to all recreational drugs.
I don’t know. I think they’re pretty independent. lol. I drink knowing it’s just as harmful as weed but can’t say I’ve ever wanted weed. If anything I just want cigarettes when I drink. That combo sometimes hits just right.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:45 pm to jangalang
quote:
If anything I just want cigarettes when I drink.
Not going to going to say that makes my point exactly, but it is worth pointing out. I've done other unhealthy and unsavory things when I'm drunk. When I've been stoned, not so much.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:48 pm to Awesome Dave
Pot being the gateway drug is so 1980s youth group. Everyone knows that
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:50 pm to jangalang
quote:
1980s youth group
The ultimate gateway drug.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:50 pm to jangalang
Eh, the argument isn’t that alcohol or any gateway drug makes you want a different one. It’s that the sensation of the mind alteration opens up the curiosity to wanting to try other versions as some point.
I don’t necessarily agree about alcohol, but that’s the main point to the gateway stuff. It’s not that they make you want to try something else while you are drunk or high, it’s that it opens you up to being curious to wanting to try others because you enjoyed the first one.
I don’t necessarily agree about alcohol, but that’s the main point to the gateway stuff. It’s not that they make you want to try something else while you are drunk or high, it’s that it opens you up to being curious to wanting to try others because you enjoyed the first one.
Posted on 11/6/20 at 6:54 pm to Awesome Dave
quote:
Not going to going to say that makes my point exactly, but it is worth pointing out. I've done other unhealthy and unsavory things when I'm drunk. When I've been stoned, not so much.
Drunk people consume copious amounts of alcohol. I’ve been to my fair share of parties in my hay day at Bama and know too many people that also did unhealthy things when they did pot TO PARTY as well.
If I’m drinking a beer after work, I liken that to one of my roommates, an English TA @ Bama that closed his door every night to smoke.
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