Started By
Message
re: Hurts Comments today (Saturday)
Posted on 8/6/18 at 5:07 pm to prevatt33
Posted on 8/6/18 at 5:07 pm to prevatt33
quote:
But let's get this one thing straight on this forum: Hurts didn't struggle last year because he CAN'T (present tense verb = always) play well - he simply didn't play well at times. He can and likely will get better. For reference, many, many Bama fans wanted Cyrus Jones' scholarship pulled midway through his first year starting at corner, but he developed over time and got drafted at the position. Hurts' performance level, just like all players, is not static, it is dynamic, and can very much improve - our coaches are trying to improve every player at every position and Hurts is no different.
Last year you were saying..."Hurts can do things that Tua cannot - the opposite it not true. There is nothing that Tua can do that Hurts cannot. Hurts can read the defense and make all the throws."
edit: Not trying to start an argument with you. I've been working and don't have the energy or inclination for that tonight. My only point was that you were wrong about Jalen then, and my opinion is that he wasn't a very good college qb then and isn't now, and probably never will be. Probably a nice guy, and would be the starter at most other places.
This post was edited on 8/6/18 at 5:45 pm
2
Posted on 8/6/18 at 5:18 pm to John Milner
Hell anybody that watched the 1st half of the NC and then the 2nd half and still stand by #2 as the Man has another agenda other than performance.
Steven A had it right when he said #2 was awful in that game. #13 makes everybody better on the offense.
Steven A had it right when he said #2 was awful in that game. #13 makes everybody better on the offense.
Posted on 8/6/18 at 7:26 pm to JoseyWalesTheOutlaw
When Bama fans watch a replay of the CFP CG, most probably don't even watch the first half. It's just too damn ugly. Three and out, rinse, repeat.
This post was edited on 8/6/18 at 7:36 pm
Posted on 8/6/18 at 8:46 pm to TidalSurge1
LINK ]Alabama star revealed himself in most crushing moment of truth (NY Post)
Posted on 8/6/18 at 8:59 pm to John Milner
No worries, friend. We're discussing, not arguing. 
I am ready and willing to admit when I am wrong, and I was certainly wrong for a time last year about Hurts, but your bolded verb tense implies that I continuously said those things, but I did not. Everyone is entitled to change their opinion when presented with new information, and I was as off the Hurts Bandwagon as everyone else was by halftime of the auburn game, and had been frustrated with how our offense looked dating back months. Additionally, I will always vehemently argue against the permanent Bama fanbase notion that the freshman QB is the best QB on the team. Granted, by November of last year, that was likely true, but it wasn't true for the 38 years of my life before that, and the fanbase did the same thing all those years too. The freshman QB is almost never the answer, particularly in the first half of the year.
You bet your arse I was wrong when I wrote those words. But if being wrong about something in the past eliminates a person's eligibility to wage future discussions, then no human can ever discuss anything ever. Forums can't exist.
Having said all that, I don't think your and my viewpoints are at odds with each other. Both of us agree that the Jalen Hurts of last year is not good enough to QB Bama going forward. I believe that all players can improve, including Jalen, but you seem to think he cannot improve. But both of us seem to think that Tua gives us the best chance to win based on the preponderance of evidence at this time. That's not a significant difference of opinion.
quote:
Last year you were saying..."Hurts can do things that Tua cannot - the opposite it not true. There is nothing that Tua can do that Hurts cannot. Hurts can read the defense and make all the throws."
I am ready and willing to admit when I am wrong, and I was certainly wrong for a time last year about Hurts, but your bolded verb tense implies that I continuously said those things, but I did not. Everyone is entitled to change their opinion when presented with new information, and I was as off the Hurts Bandwagon as everyone else was by halftime of the auburn game, and had been frustrated with how our offense looked dating back months. Additionally, I will always vehemently argue against the permanent Bama fanbase notion that the freshman QB is the best QB on the team. Granted, by November of last year, that was likely true, but it wasn't true for the 38 years of my life before that, and the fanbase did the same thing all those years too. The freshman QB is almost never the answer, particularly in the first half of the year.
quote:
My only point was that you were wrong about Jalen then
You bet your arse I was wrong when I wrote those words. But if being wrong about something in the past eliminates a person's eligibility to wage future discussions, then no human can ever discuss anything ever. Forums can't exist.
Having said all that, I don't think your and my viewpoints are at odds with each other. Both of us agree that the Jalen Hurts of last year is not good enough to QB Bama going forward. I believe that all players can improve, including Jalen, but you seem to think he cannot improve. But both of us seem to think that Tua gives us the best chance to win based on the preponderance of evidence at this time. That's not a significant difference of opinion.
This post was edited on 8/6/18 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 8/6/18 at 11:55 pm to prevatt33
quote:
Additionally, I will always vehemently argue against the permanent Bama fanbase notion that the freshman QB is the best QB on the team. Granted, by November of last year, that was likely true, but it wasn't true for the 38 years of my life before that
Not only was it probably try last year, it was also true the year before.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 1:00 am to FairhopeTider
Perhaps, but the point remains. The backup QB has been the most popular player, the best player, and the Savior for the Bama fanbase going back not only years, but decades. Let's not act like Bama history started in September, 2016.
This post was edited on 8/7/18 at 1:18 am
Posted on 8/7/18 at 6:33 am to prevatt33
There was a time when Steve Sloan took minutes away from Joe Willie and then Ken Stabler took minutes away from Steve Sloan. Richard Todd took minutes away from Gary Rutledge and Steadman Shealy took minutes from Jeff Rutledge.....these minutes weren't garbage time either. Then again in those days the players weren't suck pricks and Mama's didn't do facebook.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 1:21 pm to JoseyWalesTheOutlaw
quote:
There was a time when Steve Sloan took minutes away from Joe Willie and then Ken Stabler took minutes away from Steve Sloan. Richard Todd took minutes away from Gary Rutledge and Steadman Shealy took minutes from Jeff Rutledge.....these minutes weren't garbage time either. Then again in those days the players weren't suck pricks and Mama's didn't do facebook.
I've made the same point multiple times...that from 1973 on...that would be Richard Todd's sophomore year as a backup...the second string QB was in the game pretty much every third series, in every game, every year, no matter the score. Richard Todd scored the go ahead TD against Notre Dame in the 4th quarter in 1973. And people actually downvote that. Imagine that...Alabama fans downvoting Bear Bryant's basic offensive personnel philosophy that he used for most of his last ten years and won three of those national championships with.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 1:42 pm to prevatt33
I don’t remember anyone calling for Phillip Ely or Blake Sims during AJ’s run. And no one really wanted Coker benched for Bateman in 2015. But you are right, when QBs struggle a bit the backup becomes a fan favorite, but that’s every team, not just Alabama.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 2:07 pm to prevatt33
quote:
Additionally, I will always vehemently argue against the permanent Bama fanbase notion that the freshman QB is the best QB on the team. Granted, by November of last year, that was likely true, but it wasn't true for the 38 years of my life before that, and the fanbase did the same thing all those years too. The freshman QB is almost never the answer, particularly in the first half of the year.
I can give you a little more specific perspective from my memory, having been on campus and in the stadiums during those years.
To start with, the comment about the "freshman QB" is inaccurate, because even though freshmen became eligible in 1972, neither Richard Todd, Jack O'Rear, or Steadman Shealy ever saw the field as a freshman. Jeff Rutledge played a little his freshman year. Alabama, like many schools, still had a freshman team that played a few games a year.
Todd vs. G. Rutledge, 1973: Lots of people preferred Todd because of his athleticism and passing ability, and as was apparent from his NFL career, he was much more talented.
1974: Rutledge missed almost the entire season with injuries, so it was pretty much all Todd's year, as was 1975. And in 1975, no one was calling for Jeff Rutledge or Robert Fraley to play over Todd.
J. Rutledge vs. O'Rear, 1976: O'Rear was a senior who had never started or played very much, Rutledge was a sophomore who also had played very little as a freshman. Neither was particularly good...O'Rear the better runner in the Wishbone and Rutledge the better passer. They basically shared QB duties, and the fan base was pretty split. From what I remember also, having been on campus at the time, Rutledge was a devout Baptist and active in the BSU, while O'Rear...let's just say he was more popular with the frat guy types.
Rutledge vs. Shealy: In 1977, with Rutledge now a veteran and Shealy a sophomore with zero game experience, absolutely no one favored Shealy, who didn't have much of an arm, in spite of a disastrous 5 interception game by Jeff at Nebraska. They were the only picks Rutledge threw all season. Shealy did get meaningful snaps during the season, but Rutledge was the guy, and everyone knew it.
1978: Rutledge and Shealy settled into their roles as starter and backup, Rutledge getting the bulk of the time but Shealy also getting meaningful snaps every game, and there was no debate among the fan base about who the starter should be.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 2:09 pm to BamaGradinTn
Yes, it would have been better to write "backup QB' instead of "freshman QB."
Posted on 8/7/18 at 2:39 pm to prevatt33
1976, as I recall, seemed to be pretty contentious. To start with, we weren't as good by our standards as we had been, having lost the opener at Ole Miss and getting abused by Georgia. I think the campus was pretty split on the QB situation. Both Rutledge and O'Rear had their fans. The QBs got better, and the rest of the season was a success.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 2:48 pm to prevatt33
However, let me clarify my point about freshman QBs:
My overarching point on this topic, and I argued this several times last year, is that in order to play winning football at the QB position, one must get a number of things down pat:
1) Where each and every players lines up on every play of every set that an OC could possibly call in a game. If the QB doesn't know it, the OC can't call it.
2) What each and every player does when the ball is snapped on every play in every set that the OC wants to call. If the QB doesn't know it, the OC can't call it.
3) How to read the pre-snap defense. No, he doesn't have to be Peyton Manning in this way, but he certainly has to understand concepts, communicate with the center/line about blocking schemes, and communicate any adjustments/calls to the skill players. The QB making audibles would be in the next wave of development in pre-snap football.
4) Post-snap on running plays, he must have proper technique and timing for each RB who could play. This should be the first thing likely mastered for a freshman, but his technique must become second nature so that his play-action fake will look genuine.
5) Post-snap on passing plays, he must not only know every route tree and passing concept for every play in every set that the OC could want to call, but he has to have the necessary practice repetition to execute all of these concepts at a pace much faster than he's used to, and also execute it at the exact same pace as the other 10 and make decisions without thinking - it must become second nature for the timing to work. For most players, the number of reps necessary to get this part up to a level to contribute will take months, as it's not only him taking the reps. He needs thousands of reps, and all the other QBs are doing the same. It takes more time than you think.
Additionally on passing plays, most QBs need to be coached on their physical technique, arm motion, body position and footwork. However, in the last decade or so, freshman QBs are reporting to college with much better preparation in this area, especially the blue chips, and this will significantly speed up their development.
6) Almost all college players at each and every position do not show up for their freshman year physically ready to contribute in the SEC. This includes most QBs. They have to spend time in the weight room and on conditioning.
And so, I point out all of that to say that it's almost always illogical to call for the freshman QB to play, particularly in the first half to first 3/4 of their freshman year, as there's just too much to learn and make second nature in order to operate the offense at a high level.
And while I was certainly wrong when I thought Jalen Hurts had taken the next step in his development as a passer, that doesn't mean that the freshman, no matter how special, was the answer in September or October. Even if Tua performed circles around Hurts in skeleton drills and 7 on 7, he still wouldn't be advanced enough in points 1, 2, 3 and 5 to take the job from a mediocre passer.
If the mediocre passer knows 90 % of the playbook, and the freshman phenom knows 30%, that's a big deal. A REALLY big deal.
If the freshman can really spin the tater, but doesn't yet have all the calls, sets, and plays memorized, he can't operate the offense smoothly and makes the entire unit much more prone to penalties, negative plays, and turnovers.
And so what I'm saying is that last year all of the people clamoring for Tua early on were not taking into account everything that goes into playing QB at his level. If Bama was a 7 on 7 team playing with flags, they would've been right. But Hurts, given his superb running ability and relative mastery of the playbook, pre-snap stuff, and overall offensive operation, most definitely made us a better offense than not only TUA, but any hypothetical freshman QB on roster, could have for most of their freshman campaign. Once they catch up on all the points I mentioned, they can play. And this is exactly what we saw in 2017. Tua was ready or close to ready in November, and was the best QB on the roster in bowl prep. And the Tua that existed in bowl prep simply did not exist in September.
My overarching point on this topic, and I argued this several times last year, is that in order to play winning football at the QB position, one must get a number of things down pat:
1) Where each and every players lines up on every play of every set that an OC could possibly call in a game. If the QB doesn't know it, the OC can't call it.
2) What each and every player does when the ball is snapped on every play in every set that the OC wants to call. If the QB doesn't know it, the OC can't call it.
3) How to read the pre-snap defense. No, he doesn't have to be Peyton Manning in this way, but he certainly has to understand concepts, communicate with the center/line about blocking schemes, and communicate any adjustments/calls to the skill players. The QB making audibles would be in the next wave of development in pre-snap football.
4) Post-snap on running plays, he must have proper technique and timing for each RB who could play. This should be the first thing likely mastered for a freshman, but his technique must become second nature so that his play-action fake will look genuine.
5) Post-snap on passing plays, he must not only know every route tree and passing concept for every play in every set that the OC could want to call, but he has to have the necessary practice repetition to execute all of these concepts at a pace much faster than he's used to, and also execute it at the exact same pace as the other 10 and make decisions without thinking - it must become second nature for the timing to work. For most players, the number of reps necessary to get this part up to a level to contribute will take months, as it's not only him taking the reps. He needs thousands of reps, and all the other QBs are doing the same. It takes more time than you think.
Additionally on passing plays, most QBs need to be coached on their physical technique, arm motion, body position and footwork. However, in the last decade or so, freshman QBs are reporting to college with much better preparation in this area, especially the blue chips, and this will significantly speed up their development.
6) Almost all college players at each and every position do not show up for their freshman year physically ready to contribute in the SEC. This includes most QBs. They have to spend time in the weight room and on conditioning.
And so, I point out all of that to say that it's almost always illogical to call for the freshman QB to play, particularly in the first half to first 3/4 of their freshman year, as there's just too much to learn and make second nature in order to operate the offense at a high level.
And while I was certainly wrong when I thought Jalen Hurts had taken the next step in his development as a passer, that doesn't mean that the freshman, no matter how special, was the answer in September or October. Even if Tua performed circles around Hurts in skeleton drills and 7 on 7, he still wouldn't be advanced enough in points 1, 2, 3 and 5 to take the job from a mediocre passer.
If the mediocre passer knows 90 % of the playbook, and the freshman phenom knows 30%, that's a big deal. A REALLY big deal.
If the freshman can really spin the tater, but doesn't yet have all the calls, sets, and plays memorized, he can't operate the offense smoothly and makes the entire unit much more prone to penalties, negative plays, and turnovers.
And so what I'm saying is that last year all of the people clamoring for Tua early on were not taking into account everything that goes into playing QB at his level. If Bama was a 7 on 7 team playing with flags, they would've been right. But Hurts, given his superb running ability and relative mastery of the playbook, pre-snap stuff, and overall offensive operation, most definitely made us a better offense than not only TUA, but any hypothetical freshman QB on roster, could have for most of their freshman campaign. Once they catch up on all the points I mentioned, they can play. And this is exactly what we saw in 2017. Tua was ready or close to ready in November, and was the best QB on the roster in bowl prep. And the Tua that existed in bowl prep simply did not exist in September.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 3:24 pm to prevatt33
All that and yet we made it work with a true freshman Hurts in 16. Tua was here for the spring. It is time to admit that even Saban makes bad decisions sometimes just like not starting Tua much earlier last year.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 3:34 pm to Commander Data
quote:
we made it work with a true freshman Hurts in 16
Yes, Kiffin micro-managed a limited QB from the sidelines, similar to the Blake Sims deal, and we won a bunch of games, but lost in the playoffs. We also would've won a bunch of games with almost any of our QBs as we will out-talent 80% of the teams on our schedule. But is that what we're shooting for at Alabama? "Making it work"?
This post was edited on 8/7/18 at 3:35 pm
Posted on 8/7/18 at 3:38 pm to Commander Data
quote:
bad decisions sometimes just like not starting Tua much earlier last year.
Son of a Hanz Tap-dancing Gruber! We won a Natty! Our 5th in 9 years! And you're yammering on about bad coaching decisions! Wow. Just... Wow.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 3:48 pm to prevatt33
I also want to take this time to thank the couple of dedicated haters/fans who follow me around and downvote all of my posts. I really appreciate your dedication to stalking me, and I'm flattered. I don't care one single iota about upvotes or downvotes, but every second you spend doing it is time you'll never get back on this Earth. Time is short, and thank you for dedicating a part of your finite time on Earth to me. You're too shy and weak to type some words, but you can click. I love you, my little pussies. Click to till your heart's content.
This post was edited on 8/7/18 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 8/7/18 at 4:15 pm to prevatt33
quote:
you're yammering on about bad coaching decisions! Wow. Just... Wow.
No I am not. It was relevant to the topic and we only won that title because he finally put in the right quarterback bro. Tua should have been the starter much sooner than the second half of the title game. Saban is the goat but sticking with Hurts almost cost us a second straight title. And if we almost won it all with a freshman Hurts with no passing skills we would have won it all with a legit phenom in Tua last year. Georgia almost won it all on the back of a talented 5 star freshman and I think Tua is much better than Fromm. Regardless, this topic is as old as we are bro. Shouldn't have that problem this year at least. Our concerns are on defense this year. May just have to outscore a couple of teams.
Posted on 8/7/18 at 4:26 pm to Commander Data
quote:
sticking with Hurts almost cost us a second straight title.
I really don't like this sentiment. None of us had anything to do with winning a single game, and the only reason we're winning titles is because of decisions Saban is making. You're acting like Bama winning a title is automatic and the only reason we win it is if someone doesn't frick it up. Your irrationally and level of entitlement is astounding.
Page 11 of 13
Latest Alabama News
Popular
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News