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re: UGA Season Long Basketball Thread (18-15, 7-11); Georgia to decline NIT bid
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:22 pm to WG_Dawg
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:22 pm to WG_Dawg
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Style to me is irrelevant.
It's not about the style. It's about identity.
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Getting a good coach that can recruit will do wonders, we haven't had that combination in a long arse time, not since tubby anyway. Felton was a somewhat decent recruiter but couldnt' coach a lick. Harrick was a friggin brilliant coach but below par recruiter.
Basketball is so different than football in that 1 guy can make so much different, I mean ther'es only 5 dudes on teh floor. Typically we have 1 stud and a bunch of average to awful people around him. A coach that can put 3 good to great guys on the floor and actually know how to coach them to maximize their talents would be glorious.
This all just sounds like doing the same thing UGA has always done in basketball: hiring a new coach without any real reason to expect that it will work. It's all just hope. frick that. It's half-assed.
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Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:24 pm to Dawgsontop34
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I was really just saying things look the worst (especially for the casual fan), when you're losing, and you're inept offensively.
Disagree. Losing is losing. It fricking sucks in any style.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:28 pm to Barstools
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he has to sell the program to the recruits. How do you sell a school that has bad facilities
our facilities aren't bad, they just aren't Kansas's but we dont' need them to be either. When was the last time you've been to a game? The stege looks quite nice after the recent renovations, and our practice faciliyt could use a bit of an upgrade but it's damn sure not the reason we aren't winning ballgames.
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an athletic department and fanbase that overall doesn't care
The AD defeinitely doesn't (or hasn't) cared. I hope that they are starting to.
The fanbase doesn't care because why should they? Get a winner in here and you'll be shocked at how many turn out in droves. It's happened every time we've had a good team in my lifetime.
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We can bring in a new coach that may be able to produce a few more wins, but that doesn't fix the underlying issues surrounding our program.
The underlying issue is the lack of importance the AD puts on it, but that wouldn't even matter if we'd actually hire competent coaches.
-Tubby was great but bolted for the pinnacle of MBB, can't fault him there. I believe I heard a story that dooley didn't even bother trying to match or keep him because he knew he'd leave anyway.
-Harrick was a grand slam hire. It's shameful the way he was run out on a rail for such trivial reasons.
-Felton was a disaster but he did what he was supposed to do in getting us out of trouble adn "righting the ship".
-Fox was a head scratcher and has absolutely ZERO business beign here for 9 yeras.
And you downplay things by saying we could get a coach for "a few more wins". Fox is a bum that couldn't coach a rec league team and you think we might only scrape out "a few more wins"? Fox should have had at least 2 or 3 more teams in the NCAAT but failed, take those same teams with an adequate coach and we look a lot different today.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:30 pm to Crowknowsbest
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This all just sounds like doing the same thing UGA has always done in basketball: hiring a new coach without any real reason to expect that it will work. It's all just hope.
I'm not advocating throwing a dart at a board. I'm saying we should pay $3.5M and get the best the country has to offer. That's not "random", it's going out and aggressively getting a WINNER.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:36 pm to WG_Dawg
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I'm not advocating throwing a dart at a board. I'm saying we should pay $3.5M and get the best the country has to offer. That's not "random", it's going out and aggressively getting a WINNER.
That is throwing a dart at a board imo if that's all you do, and I see no indication that Georgia would ever do that anyway.
I just don't think you fix a century's worth of shite basketball with one desperate decision. It's about making a bunch of good decisions consecutively.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:37 pm to Dawgsontop34
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kids are still going to go to UNC, Duke, UK, KU, etc. but Miss State, Auburn, and Bama are proving that if you hire the right guy you can get kids to come to programs that aren't basketball oriented.
That's the thing that many overlook or willfully choose to ignore. If motherfriggin AUBURN, who hasn't done anythign nationally of note since the turn of the century, can bring in top ranked recruiting classes and have AU #1 in the SEC and top 10 in the country there is NOOOOO reason we can't either, besides finding the right coach. People say our facilities are bad and the fans don't care. You think Auburn had good fan support or superioer faciliies? AU has been ranked more in the last 3 weeks than Fox has been in his entire career.
You can talk about all the other crap you want, but the coach is the driving force. Get a coach, then the recruits, and the wins and money come after.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:39 pm to WG_Dawg
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You think Auburn had good fan support or superioer faciliies?
They just built a new arena in 2010, and Bruce Pearl isn't an example I would follow in the current climate with his NCAA history and the current FBI investigation.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:40 pm to Crowknowsbest
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I'm saying we should pay $3.5M and get the best the country has to offer. T
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That is throwing a dart at a board imo
how so? I'm not saying post a craigslist add with the salary attached, I'm talking about looking across the country, college and pros, and targeting a group of coaches that are proven winners that know what they're doing. In what universe is that random?
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I see no indication that Georgia would ever do that anyway.
If you'd asked me 3 years ago I wouldn't think we'd be doing half the stuff we are in football but alas we are.
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I just don't think you fix a century's worth of shite basketball with one desperate decision.
can you explain what's desperate? Desperate is where we are now under fox. And spare me the "century's worth of bad basketball". There's 5 guys on the floor, you can take a putrid program and turn them into an NCAA team in 2 years with the right coach. What happened in the 1950s couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:42 pm to Crowknowsbest
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They just built a new arena in 2010,
Yep, that's smaller than ours and mostly plain. It has better student seating, but aside from that what sets is apart? Our glass facade and new hanging scoreboard leveled the playing field for us.
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Bruce Pearl isn't an example I would follow in the current climate with his NCAA history and the current FBI investigation.
I didn't say go hire bruce pearl. I said all it takes is getting a competent coach (which pearl undoubtedly is) and you can take a loser program (like auburn, and us) to be winners in relatively short order.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:45 pm to WG_Dawg
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how so? I'm not saying post a craigslist add with the salary attached, I'm talking about looking across the country, college and pros, and targeting a group of coaches that are proven winners that know what they're doing. In what universe is that random?
Because the circumstances surrounding every program are fundamentally different. Some guy winning at Wichita St doesn't necessarily translate to winning at Georgia, for example.
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If you'd asked me 3 years ago I wouldn't think we'd be doing half the stuff we are in football but alas we are.
Georgia's commitment to football has always been miles ahead of basketball, even when that lagged behind our peers.
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And spare me the "century's worth of bad basketball". There's 5 guys on the floor, you can take a putrid program and turn them into an NCAA team in 2 years with the right coach. What happened in the 1950s couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.
A century's worth of bad basketball says that UGA has no fricking idea how to run a successful basketball program and needs to rethink its entire operation, which is what I'm advocating.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 1:46 pm to WG_Dawg
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aside from that what sets is apart?
It's new, and they can tell recruits that it's new.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 2:00 pm to Crowknowsbest
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Some guy winning at Wichita St doesn't necessarily translate to winning at Georgia, for example.
Agree, but there are coaches out there that can win given the resources we have. I can't give you a list because tha'ts not my job, but they are certainly out there and fox aint one of em.
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Georgia's commitment to football has always been miles ahead of basketball, even when that lagged behind our peers.
the point goes back to our administration's willingless to advance us forward. Richt was paying assistant's out of his own pocket for crying out loud, and we were the 2nd to last team in the SEC to even have an indoor facility. In 4 short years, once pruitt's hardass started demanding shite because he knows what a championship level program looks like, we now have an IPF, a massive support staff, new stadium lockerrooms, etc. Sure football has been ahead of basketball, but we were WAAAAAAY behidn the curve compared to our peers when it comes to spending money to make money. And lo and behold, now that we've started spending money to make us more atractive (and getting a great coach taht can recruit) we're winning a lot more. Crazy!
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A century's worth of bad basketball says that UGA has no fricking idea how to run a successful basketball program
Which again, is irrelevant considering hiring the right head coach can get you relevant in 3 years or less. Last century doens't mean shite.
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needs to rethink its entire operation, which is what I'm advocating.
in what way?
Posted on 2/14/18 at 2:14 pm to WG_Dawg
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in what way?
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If Georgia is ever going to be a decent basketball program, it needs to take a good long look in the mirror and evaluate what the most likely way for that to happen is. Fox is not going to be able to do that and make necessary changes at this point, so he should go. That's just a small step though.
Beyond that:
1) This whole "lock down the elite talent in metro ATL" shite is a pipe dream that is never going to happen. The very best players aren't going to choose UGA over UNC, UK, Duke, etc. consistently enough for UGA to maintain a steady, good product. This isn't football. Basketball players don't tend to favor the home state team particularly.
2) Related to #1, the next time a non-traditional power builds a nationally competitive (i.e. consistent top 20 or so) basketball program based on the recruitment of future NBA players will be the first time that has happened in the modern era, to my knowledge. UGA should not base their model around recruiting those players. You can recruit them and hope to get one every once in a while, but that can't be your base.
3) UGA needs to create an identity as a program. It doesn't matter what that is, but it's easier for a non-power for that identity to be defensive imo. 40 minutes of hell, pack line, 2-3, whatever. The reason that I think it's easier to build your program around a defensive style is that you can recruit to that style in the absence of being able to recruit the very best dynamic offensive players. See Virginia.
4) Winning in any style is more entertaining than losing in any style.
5) Player development is a key, arguably the key. Strength programs can be just as valuable in basketball as they are in football if deployed correctly. Redshirting players should not be rare. Find raw, long athletes with some basketball skill and bulk them up into what you need to win at a high level. Again, see Virginia.
I keep bringing UVa up as an example not because we necessarily need to copy their style, but because there are a lot of aspects of their growth as a program that can be copied, especially with the high number of athletes that UGA can recruit.
Decide on how UGA is going to play in tandem with a qualified coach.
Find players who fit that identity.
Put resources into developing those players.
There isn't some magic fairy dust that's going to make UGA a solid program. It's all fundamentals.
If a big name coach is part of that vision, fine. I just think it's more important to have a specific plan of what you think the program should look like based on how you're most likely to win consistently. In UGA's case, that imo means coming up with a plan to win without counting on signing top 50 players consistently.
Find a coach that fits that vision. He might be a big "proven" name or might not be. I don't care either way.
ETA: Similar to football in that way actually. UGA wanted to be Alabama, so it went and hired the guy who knew how to best model the program after Alabama.
This post was edited on 2/14/18 at 2:23 pm
Posted on 2/14/18 at 2:35 pm to Crowknowsbest
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in what way
:
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1) This whole "lock down the elite talent in metro ATL" shite is a pipe dream that is never going to happen.
The Wendell Carters will always go to duke but you're insane if you don't think we can get a coach that can recruit the area better than fox. There is a plethora of high level talent in GA, we don't need to sign 5 of them every year to improve. Fox's recruiting rankings the last 5 years, from '18 to '14:
60
41
35
48
110
That's an average of 59. You don't have to lock down atlanta to recruit better than the 59th best class nationally.
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2) Related to #1, the next time a non-traditional power builds a nationally competitive (i.e. consistent top 20 or so) basketball program based on the recruitment of future NBA players will be the first time that has happened in the modern era, to my knowledge. UGA should not base their model around recruiting those players.
Mostly agree. So so far your first 2 points boil down to: find a coach that recruits better.
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3) UGA needs to create an identity as a program. It doesn't matter what that is, but it's easier for a non-power for that identity to be defensive imo. 40 minutes of hell, pack line, 2-3, whatever. The reason that I think it's easier to build your program around a defensive style is that you can recruit to that style in the absence of being able to recruit the very best dynamic offensive players. See Virginia.
Again, I think style doesn't matter one iota. There are probably 50 differnet coaching system philosophies out there, I just want one that is successful. Whether we win games 52-48 or 98-94, it's irrelevant.
Which agrees with your point #4.
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5) Player development is a key, arguably the key.
Yes, agree, which fox is atrocious at.
So it seems the 2 main focal points of your method for UGA basketball to completely retool itself and overhaul the entire shape of the programs are 1) Recruit better 2) Have competent coaching.
We all agree with that.
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Decide on how UGA is going to play in tandem with a qualified coach.
No...find a good coach and let him run whatever system he wants. You dont' come up with a system/vision then hire for it. You let the professional coach play to his strengths. When zook was fired UF didn't say "well here is the offense we run". They identified their best target who ran a COMPLETELY different system. 2 years later he took his own system and won a title.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 2:48 pm to WG_Dawg
I don't think we're actually very far off from agreeing, but you're missing my basic premise, which is probably my fault.
I think every program in every sport has a basic DNA based on what kind of players they can consistently sign. That DNA, for lack of a better word, determines how you can best go about winning.
In my opinion, UGA will always struggle to sign super elite offensive players. On the other hand, UGA should have no problem finding a bunch of elite raw athletes.
That, to me, dictates a defense-based identity. So now if we make that determination, UGA can look for a coach with that in mind. Once you find a good fit for that mindset, you would obviously turn everything over to him in terms of what specific system he wants to run.
If that coach is successful and leaves, you aren't back at square one. You have the foundation already built for the next guy who fits that identity. If coach 1 isn't successful, you still have that foundation in the form of players already recruited to fit a program identity.
ETA: I think something like how WVU currently plays would actually be a great fit for UGA.
I think every program in every sport has a basic DNA based on what kind of players they can consistently sign. That DNA, for lack of a better word, determines how you can best go about winning.
In my opinion, UGA will always struggle to sign super elite offensive players. On the other hand, UGA should have no problem finding a bunch of elite raw athletes.
That, to me, dictates a defense-based identity. So now if we make that determination, UGA can look for a coach with that in mind. Once you find a good fit for that mindset, you would obviously turn everything over to him in terms of what specific system he wants to run.
If that coach is successful and leaves, you aren't back at square one. You have the foundation already built for the next guy who fits that identity. If coach 1 isn't successful, you still have that foundation in the form of players already recruited to fit a program identity.
ETA: I think something like how WVU currently plays would actually be a great fit for UGA.
This post was edited on 2/14/18 at 2:54 pm
Posted on 2/14/18 at 3:05 pm to WG_Dawg
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Yes, agree, which fox is atrocious at.
I wouldn't say he's atrocious at developing players. I actually think he's very good at developing post players. Guards on the other hand, he's not as great with. But I think the biggest issue comes to depth. I feel like we always end up offering some low 3 star or 2 star player at the end of the recruiting process who comes in, plays 3-4 years, and contributes absolutely nothing. I mean, I get wanting to use your scholarships, but we get killed with guys like Iduwe (transferred), Edwards, Kante, and Hightower who give us next to nothing when they're out there.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 7:03 pm to Crowknowsbest
Yes, I think we are mostly on the same page. But I disagree with your fundamental idea that we should pick an identity then pick a coach that fits it. I think it's the opposite..we should pick the best coach out there in the country that we can find, then let him recruit to his philosophy. Fast break, 3 points galore, stingy defense, whatever it may be..get the guy in then let him recruit to his strengths. But you're hamstringing yourself by deciding beforehand "look..this is what we're gonna be, so we're only gonna look at guys that do x,y, and z".
You go out and get the very best coach in america that money can buy then tailor the players around his strengths.
You go out and get the very best coach in america that money can buy then tailor the players around his strengths.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 8:05 pm to WG_Dawg
I guess my thought is that programs tend to attract the same types of players through different coaches, or at least there are certain types of players that are more available to certain programs. That’s just anecdotal. I would build a program with that in mind.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 8:21 pm to Crowknowsbest
Not sure if anyone is watching, but Tyree just got completely lost on defense and gave up a wide open 3. That's the sort of stuff that's so frustrating with him.
Posted on 2/14/18 at 8:25 pm to Dawgsontop34
When I watch Florida, I see a decent team that has 2-3 guys who can get hot from downtown and change the game. When I watch Georgia, I see an average team that doesn't do any one thing particularly well like Florida's shooting
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