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re: If Fields had stayed
Posted on 11/28/19 at 9:37 am to djsdawg
Posted on 11/28/19 at 9:37 am to djsdawg
quote:When your backup QB is in the game early on (not in garbage time) when the outcome hasn't been effectively decided, and when the starting QB hasn't done anything worthy of losing his job, that, to me, is "legit PT".
Fields didn’t get legit PT in these games, so this excuse doesn’t cut it. Fromm had early int and struggles vs Sc and mizzou. Fromm didn’t play good vs vols, and he was pure trash vs LSU. Imagine watching that crap, and not getting a fair shot to do better than that. Kirby wasn’t about to let Fields upstage Fromm. That’s not a fair shake.
And it's quite the assumption you're making when you say "Kirby wasn't about to let Fields upstage Fromm". You are ascribing bias and intent to CKS without evidence that he had any. CKS has been very conservative with his offense, generally speaking, and has taken quite a few hits regarding it this season. You don't think the real reason he kept Fields out of the game more and left Fromm in the game more is because he didn't want to risk more turnovers with Fields when Fromm has done a great job historically with protecting the football? It's also likely that Fields just hadn't outperformed Fromm in practice, which CKS puts a premium on.
quote:You seriously think that throwing and running is all there is to the QB position, don't you?
Only split reps? That’s a detriment to both. When both did get to play, fields was no worse than very close to Fromm as a passer, and that’s not accounting for the added dimension of qbs runs that only one of them has. That alone should have earned him a fair shot on the field when Fromm struggled.
"Only split reps"? Only? That's a huge deal for an unproven true freshman going up against a proven, championship-winning QB. It gave Fields greater opportunities to get better at the expense of rhythm for our starter. That's huge and I think shouldn't have happened because it impacted Fromm's performance early on.
Getting back to the performance: Fields couldn't read defenses like Fromm was. He wasn't getting the protections in like Fromm was. He was making sure everyone was lined up like Fromm was. He wasn't leading the team like Fromm was. You are focused on his throws and runs (for good reason) but you can't imply that the two were equals on the field. There's a lot more to playing football and CKS recognized that Fields wasn't ready to start over Fromm at that time.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 9:45 am to djsdawg
quote:Then you should have no problem doing what I asked by providing evidence that he made a bad decision. Where are the commentators saying so? I'll concede if you can show me that I'm not just hearing what I want to hear, even though I've already said that the interception was on him already so I've already shown that I'm willing to call it like I see it even if it means saying something negative against Fromm.
That’s the frommbot echo chamber you are hearing.
quote:I bolded the relevant part to my argument. If he was trying to throw it "a mile over his head" but couldn't get enough on it when falling away from a defender in his face, wouldn't it make sense that the ball would've actually landed closer to Pickens?
Considering the ball went directly to Pickens, I would say that’s evidence enough of his intentions.
A throwaway should have been into the feet of a wr, a mile over his head, or 6 yards ahead of him out of bounds.
But again, I don't know why you are arguing this point so much. Whether it was a bad throw or a bad decision ultimately doesn't matter: it's the only interception he's had this season that is his fault, regardless of the why on that particular play.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 10:14 am to djsdawg
quote:He handled it differently because it was a different situation. Bryant was struggling and Lawrence played well when he got the opportunities. Bryant was actually a more mobile option over Lawrence, but Lawrence was making good decisions and reads and moving the ball where Bryant was making bad decisions and not able to move the ball (even with his mobility). Lawrence also benefited fromn Bryant getting injured in a game early on and was able to lead the offense for an extended period of time. He still wasn't named the starter until it was obvious that he was "clicking" with the offense while Bryant was struggling.
Dabo handled everything differently, and they benefitted from his gutsy decision. Kirby didn’t give fields the same chance dabo gave Lawrence. Dabo wasn’t seen as manipulated or disloyal because he let it play out on the field for everyone to see. Kirby didn’t have the brains or the guts to do the same.
Fromm wasn't struggling like Bryant was. He was still doing everything he needed to do save for some adjustments with moving away from the RPO that he ran frequently the season before. Lawrence was head and shoulders better than Bryant and still Dabo got several games into the struggles before Lawrence took over.
It was obvious that Lawrence was the better option that far into the season so clearly there wouldn't be an issue. The loyalty and player support wasn't about replacing the QB, but the situation the QB was in: there wasn't a reason to bench Fromm. There was a reason to bench Bryant.
It wasn't about guts, but smarts. It was the right call for the team for Lawrence to get the nod over Bryant. That wasn't true for Fields over Fromm.
This post was edited on 11/28/19 at 10:51 am
Posted on 11/28/19 at 10:38 am to djsdawg
quote:The criticality is based on context. Missing an open TD isn't as critical in a blowout win as it is in a close loss.
Stuck to the idea that missing open passing tds is a minor issue I see. I disagree and think they are critical mistakes.
But that's what I'm getting at: context is important. We aren't driving the ball well lately. We aren't doing everything else we need to do on offense to be successful. The whole of our offense is dysfunctional right now, which is a lot more concerning to me than a few missed throws by themselves. If we had a more consistent offense, we likely wouldn't care as much about a few missed throws. The reason why they stand out so much is because we have been struggling to move the ball, so we assign more importance to those few plays than we would if we were converting more 1st downs and scoring more points.
quote:That's very true, and yet the focus from you has been on the QB and not the "other deficiencies in our offense". Football is a team game.
And we are also missing all of those running yards and tds he would have, which would help alleviate other deficiencies in our offense in a way Fromm can’t do.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 10:43 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:He's had Cager. When Cager is in the game, Fromm has been more successful. When Cager has been out, he's been less successful. Cager has been out a signifcant portion of othe season and looks to be out for the rest of it. Having one consistent receiver (and Pickens just now getting to a more reliable place) is not giving Fromm what he needs to be successful.
Fromm has had enough around him to be more successful than he has been.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 10:48 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:Yes they do. Every time the weather is brought up, it's dismissed outright without even a concession that it affects how QBs throw the ball. The only response I've seen consistently is that big boys shouldn't let it affect them.
People don’t act like their is no difference.
quote:Terrible weather conditions almost always impact the ability to move the ball through the air. Even so, we've struggled to move the ball in dry conditions so why would you think it would be better in wet conditions? It's why some of us our trying to look at the problem more holistically and understand the various factors involved rather than focusing on one aspect and then proceeding to light the torches and grab the pitchforks.
We do think that the rain shouldn’t result in the complete inability to move the ball through the air.Peopley don’t act like their is no difference.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 10:53 am to FooManChoo
quote:
When your backup QB is in the game early on (not in garbage time) when the outcome hasn't been effectively decided, and when the starting QB hasn't done anything worthy of losing his job, that, to me, is "legit PT".
Exactly. That’s what I am saying. Fields didn’t get legit pt in any of those games.
quote:
it's quite the assumption you're making when you say "Kirby wasn't about to let Fields upstage Fromm".
Very safe assumption based on common sense. Not only did Kirby not want a qb controversy, he also didn’t want to appear disloyal to Fromm, which would lead Fromm to transfer away. The best way to accomplish both is to do exactly what he did, which is not let Fields play while Fromm struggled early in games. It worked to keep Fromm, but it didn’t keep fields here as he had hoped. It was a miscalculation on his part.
quote:
seriously think that throwing and running is all there is to the QB position, don't you?
No, but I don’t think an inexperienced qb getting 50% reps is gonna give them a leg up over an experienced qb getting 50% reps. The inexperienced guy needs reps more than anyone else.
Besides, where is this claim of 50/50 coming from? Seems like an unfounded claim.
quote:
Getting back to the performance: Fields couldn't read defenses like Fromm was. He wasn't getting the protections in like Fromm was. He was making sure everyone was lined up like Fromm was. He wasn't leading the team like Fromm was.
If so, that’s exactly why he needed some legit PT, which he didn’t get. Fields seems to doing well in these areas this year, so he was certainly capable if given the needed reps and PT to grow into the role.
This post was edited on 11/28/19 at 11:34 am
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:05 am to FooManChoo
quote:
handled it differently because it was a different situation. Bryant was struggling and Lawrence played well when he got the opportunities.
Bryant led an early td drive vs aggies, which is the opposite of struggling, but then Lawrence got his first drive immediately after that. Dabo wasted no time.
Fields never got this kind of chance even though Fromm did struggle early, which you still aren’t acknowledging. I have Wondered if smart does play fields if Fromm wasn’t struggling early, but we will never know.
Dabo made sure to give Lawrence a fair shot on the field, which was the right move for any team trying to win big. If Lawrence never got that shot, then the kellybots could have argued Lawrence wasn’t a better option. Dabo made sure they never had a chance to make such a flimsy argument.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:15 am to FooManChoo
quote:
criticality is based on context. Missing an open TD isn't as critical in a blowout win as it is in a close loss.
Missed open tds by fromm made games that should have been comfortable wins turn into needless nail biters. It gave the opponents opportunities to beat uga, which is why it stands out so much. That’s the context I speak of.
quote:
the focus from you has been on the QB and not the "other deficiencies in our offense". Football is a team game.
Because qb is the subject. Not only could a better passer hit open tds at a higher rate, his scrambles or called runs could gain first downs we aren’t getting now. Point is, It helps in both explosive and methodical drives.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:32 am to FooManChoo
quote:
bolded the relevant part to my argument. If he was trying to throw it "a mile over his head" but couldn't get enough on it when falling away from a defender in his face, wouldn't it make sense that the ball would've actually landed closer to Pickens?
“I thought I put enough on it, (and) thought I was throwing in (George Pickens’) direction, and I thought it was gong to be an “only” ball, where only he could catch it, or it would go out of bounds.”
As you can see, he damn sure isn’t saying he was trying to throw the ball away. Throwaways don’t have the intent he describes. He wanted Pickens to have a shot at the ball, and he did have a shot. Problem is, His arm just wasn’t strong enough to get it where it needed to be. Perhaps this play works for a strong armed guy like fields.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:42 am to djsdawg
quote:He got plenty of that type of PT throughout the season. A lot more than he should have given how we used him and his place as the backup.
Exactly. That’s what I am saying. Fields didn’t get legit pt in any of those games.
quote:Not safe at all. There's a difference between trying to keep two QBs happy and not letting on "upstage" the other. The second implies that the coach actually has an agenda to actively suppress one over the other. If CKS didn't want Fields to "upstage" Fromm due to bias or whatever else, he wouldn't have played Fields at all except in garbage time. It's too great a risk to let him play and excel and force the controversy.
Very safe assumption based on common sense. Not only did Kirby not want a qb controversy, he also didn’t want to appear disloyal to Fromm, which would lead Fromm to transfer away. The best way to accomplish both is to do exactly what he did, which is not let Fields play while Fromm struggled early in games. It worked to keep Fromm, but it didn’t keep fields here as he had hoped. It was a miscalculation on his part.
quote:It's not about giving the #2 a leg up over the #1. It's about taking reps away from the clear #1 which will prevent him from getting better. There's a reason why the starter usually gets the lions share of the "quality" practice reps. It's to help him get better and develop better chemistry with the rest of that offensive unit. It's about cohesion, and you don't get a lot of that when you're constantly switching out QBs with different skill sets and experience.
No, but I don’t think an inexperienced qb getting 50% reps is gonna give them a leg up over an experienced qb getting 50% reps. The inexperienced guy needs reps more than anyone else.
quote:I read that the two were splitting reps with the 1's throughout the season and held on to it.
Besides, where is this claim of 50/50 coming from? Seems like an unfounded claim.
quote:You realize that most coaches don't use live games where the outcome of the game and potentially the goals of the season are still in doubt to give his backups experience, right? That's why they tend to only see PT during mop up duty. That's also why practice is important.
If so, that’s exactly why he needed some legit PT, which he didn’t get. Fields seems to doing well in these areas this year, so he was certainly capable of given the needed reps and PT to grow into the role.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:48 am to FooManChoo
quote:
He got plenty of that type of PT throughout the season. A lot more than he should have given how we used him and his place as the backup.
Not in any of the games I mentioned.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 11:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Not safe at all. There's a difference between trying to keep two QBs happy and not letting on "upstage" the other. The second implies that the coach actually has an agenda to actively suppress one over the other. If CKS didn't want Fields to "upstage" Fromm due to bias or whatever else, he wouldn't have played Fields at all except in garbage time. It's too great a risk to let him play and excel and force the controversy.
#1 on the agenda was “do not create a qb controversy”.
The easiest way to create a qb controversy is
for the backup to do well while the starter is struggling.
Inserting fields while Fromm struggled drastically increases the odds of a qb controversy. Letting Fromm play through his struggles does the opposite to the odds.
Point is, Coaches don’t like qb controversies, but feel free explaining otherwise if you disagree.
quote:
realize that most coaches don't use live games where the outcome of the game and potentially the goals of the season are still in doubt to give his backups experience, right?
Perhaps it is a gamble, but one that can pay off.
Dabo did it in 2018. Richt did in 2002. Both teams were better off for it.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 12:45 pm to djsdawg
quote:Bryant's first drive was a completion for -1 yards and a sack. Second drive was better, mostly due to his receivers picking him up on two plays, and then he had a 1 yard TD drive. Lawrence then came in for one play, which happened to go for a TD, so who knows if Lawrence would have continued the drive if he struggled, but he didn't and so he stayed in for another drive before being replaced by Bryant. Bryant also was upstaged by Lawrence in the previous game, where the true freshman had better overall stats and 3 passing touchdowns to Bryant's 1 passing and 1 rushing TD. Lawrence got more PT in the second half but struggled to move the ball so they went back to Bryant who wound up getting Clemson the win. Bryant started the next game but ended the first two drives with an interception and a sack before Lawrence came in. He had a spotty performance and Lawrence came in early with a TD.
Bryant led an early td drive vs aggies, which is the opposite of struggling, but then Lawrence got his first drive immediately after that. Dabo wasted no time.
It was obvious that Bryant was serviceable but Lawrence was out-performing him with less experience. Even so, there was a back and forth for basically the first third of the season as Bryant still started against GT and then was taken out after a poor start and then Lawrence came in and moved the ball. Bryant got more chances later in the game but didn't play nearly as well as Lawrence. Lawrence started his first game against Syracuse in game #5 and didn't let go of the starting job.
In the end, it was the play of both Bryant and Lawrence that gave Dabo a clear understanding of which way to go, and as soon as Lawrence was named the starter, Bryant immediately started skipping practices and looked into transferring, so there wasn't an opportunity for him to fight his way back into the picture.
quote:Fields didn't get the same kind of PT as Lawrence did through the same stretch of games, but the first game was similar, seeing Fromm and Fields trade off series early on. The second game was a conference game that we needed to win, and given that CKS is a more conservative coach, it makes sense why he didn't want to make that game a competition. Even so, Fromm actually had a really good game overall, going 15/18 for almost 200 yards.
Fields never got this kind of chance even though Fromm did struggle early, which you still aren’t acknowledging.
Fields came back in the next game against Middle Tennessee and got more PT, leading several series including early on when the game was still close. Fromm was efficient again, going 10/12 with 3 TDs. The next game was a shootout with Missouri where it was close throughout the game. CKS wasn't going to gamble a close conference game on Fields, who up until that point hadn't shown that he was more capable than Fromm. Blame CKS if you'd like but he's conservative and Fromm still threw for 260 yards and 3 TDs.
Fields got more PT against Tennessee and got a chance to show off his running abilities with 2 TDs, but then turned around at Vandy and missed a few of his throws and took off running when it wasn't necessary. At the same time, Fromm was 17/23 for 276 yards and 3 TDs.
Fields got a share of "real snaps" early on but outside of Tennessee where Fields got a few rushing TDs, Fromm started the season playing very well, and he didn't have a really bad game outside of LSU. Then he picked it back up and played lights out the rest of the way. Fromm didn't give conservative CKS a reason to bench him in favor of Fields for more than he did, and frankly Fields got more PT than he should have given that our offense with Fromm was averaging 40 points a game.
quote:I think the intent was to play Fields all season. There was no intent to RS Fields even with Fromm playing well for most of the season, so obviously CKS was going to put Fields in the games here and there.
I have Wondered if smart does play fields if Fromm wasn’t struggling early, but we will never know.
quote:Say what you want about Dabo and Smart, but outside of Missouri (where we scored a lot of points) and LSU, we were able to win games comfortably with Fromm as our QB. Even against Alabama, Fromm wasn't the reason we lost that game.
Dabo made sure to give Lawrence a fair shot on the field, which was the right move for any team trying to win big. If Lawrence never got that shot, then the kellybots could have argued Lawrence wasn’t a better option. Dabo made sure they never had a chance to make such a flimsy argument.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 1:13 pm to FooManChoo
I think it's more to do with new OC, poor scheme and losing half the WR room more than anything.
However, I wonder if not having the "possible replacement" nipping at his heels forcing him to be better has actually caused him to let off a tad. Could the lack of competition be impacting Fromm's game?
Also wondering if the last half of the season would drop his draft stock and drive him to stay his Sr year.
However, I wonder if not having the "possible replacement" nipping at his heels forcing him to be better has actually caused him to let off a tad. Could the lack of competition be impacting Fromm's game?
Also wondering if the last half of the season would drop his draft stock and drive him to stay his Sr year.
This post was edited on 11/28/19 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 11/28/19 at 1:17 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Blame CKS if you'd like but he's conservative
Yep. Conservative to a fault.
After what fields did to Austin peay and mtsu, and with fromm’s first half struggles that were filled with fumbles and interceptions (similar to Bryant) Fields should have had legit first half drives to qb vs Sc, mizzou, and UT in September (each similar in difficulty to the Texas anm game for Clemson).
Only that would have made it a legit qb competition, which is what aggressive dabo did, and conservative Kirby didn’t.
This post was edited on 11/28/19 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 11/28/19 at 1:32 pm to djsdawg
quote:That's my point. Our offense as a whole has struggled which has put greater emphasis on the missed throws (which we're talking about half a dozen or so over the course of hundreds of total attempts). You want to focus on those throws instead of focusing on why we have to have those handful of throws to be more comfortable in games. If our offense was fine and yet we still were losing or keeping games close because of those throws, it'd be a different matter than if we struggle to move the ball as we're doing today.
Missed open tds by fromm made games that should have been comfortable wins turn into needless nail biters. It gave the opponents opportunities to beat uga, which is why it stands out so much. That’s the context I speak of.
quote:It can, but when our receivers fail to get open enough for our otherwise typical high-percentage throws to move the ball, we've got a bigger problem. Fact of the matter is that we shouldn't have to rely on a handful of throws throughout a season and our QBs legs to always keep the chains moving. We don't run that type of offense, as much as you seem to wish otherwise. With the offense we have today, Fromm would excel with more consistent receivers and all the complaints you have would be minimized entirely. It's why context matters.
Because qb is the subject. Not only could a better passer hit open tds at a higher rate, his scrambles or called runs could gain first downs we aren’t getting now. Point is, It helps in both explosive and methodical drives.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 1:35 pm to djsdawg
quote:I think we're both wrong, then. It wasn't simply a target to Pickens (a bad decision) and it wasn't simply a throw away. It was both and it was neither. It was a ball intended to go out of bounds or get caught by Pickens because it was meant to be high and outside, and as Fromm confirmed, he didn't get enough on the ball (because of the pressure). So yeah, it wasn't a bad decision ultimately; it was that he didn't get enough on the ball.
“I thought I put enough on it, (and) thought I was throwing in (George Pickens’) direction, and I thought it was gong to be an “only” ball, where only he could catch it, or it would go out of bounds.”
As you can see, he damn sure isn’t saying he was trying to throw the ball away. Throwaways don’t have the intent he describes. He wanted Pickens to have a shot at the ball, and he did have a shot. Problem is, His arm just wasn’t strong enough to get it where it needed to be. Perhaps this play works for a strong armed guy like fields.
Thanks for clearing that up. We're still left with one interception on the season that belongs to Fromm going into the final game of the regular season.
Posted on 11/28/19 at 2:04 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
which we're talking about half a dozen or so over the course of hundreds of total attempts)
It’s been about a half dozen in November alone, which is extremely high considering how small the sample size is of open td pass attempts.
quote:
You want to focus on those throws instead of focusing on why we have to have those handful of throws to be more comfortable in games
Because it’s the easiest thing to fix, as it’s throwing a ball to an open wr.
Because it’s easy to quantify: Each miss is worth 4-7 points.
Most games aren’t going to be comfortable wins if you miss the easy td passes, especially when you face tough defenses that make scoring hard, especially on methodical drives.
quote:
Fact of the matter is that we shouldn't have to rely on a handful of throws throughout a season and our QBs legs to always keep the chains moving.We don't run that type of offense
It’s not just us. Many teams Rely on doing those things well. Ball control is part of our offense, and it can be controlled in more ways than we are limited to with our slow qb. Its even more applicable when you play a tough defense like we have been facing in November.
It’s so frustrating to watch your defense do everything right, only to see the qb escape for a big gain via pass or run. Tua, burrow, hurts, and fields do that so well. It’s a big reason why bama has beaten us twice in 2018, and why LSU beat us last year. Teams don’t have to worry about that with us, thus making us easier to defend.
This post was edited on 11/28/19 at 2:10 pm
Posted on 11/28/19 at 2:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
he didn't get enough on the ball (because of the pressure
Yes, he handles pressure poorly, and doesn’t have the very strong arm to make this kind of play work. He should understand his limitations better and throw it away into the dirt.
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