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re: Covid In Georgia - 2021 The Reckoning
Posted on 8/15/21 at 2:35 pm to meansonny
Posted on 8/15/21 at 2:35 pm to meansonny
quote:
But it is my understanding that you can withdraw your student at any time and go home school. And vice versa.
The difference is that you are completely removing yourself from one administration and moving to the other.
The school board doesnt mention this because they lose FTE money per student. And home school parents are often home school for a reason (they dont like the local administrations response to bullying, faith, etc..). They dont want those parent back with their complaints.
Yeah. Both of us work fulltime, and are on a lot of client facing calls, from home at that, so homeschool would be quite the challenge to pull off. It's just exceptionally frustrating that not even the simplest of requests will be discussed due to over-politicization of the situation to begin with. The few "real responses" I've seen from the board allege that the principals have the ability to change their individual school policies, but I've spoken with our principal. She's already said that if she could, she would, particularly given the ridiculous case load they've already seen. Other parents that we know or have met in Cobb have had the same conversation with their school leadership as well. If I try to read between the lines (meaning this is just my opinion, not fact), it seems like it's a question of liability... no one wants to be held personally responsible, so if the decision doesn't come from a higher level, they worry that their group/entity (be that superintendent, board chair, principal, school, etc) will be the target of some kind of legal action, putting their personal employment status at risk. Can't blame the state level for not trying to one size fits all a problem that is not identical across the whole state, thus... Cobb school board = head up their arse.
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Posted on 8/15/21 at 4:06 pm to fibonaccisquared
That's a whole lot of words to avoid the simple verifiable truth that masks don't work. The virus goes right straight through them. In and out.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 5:02 pm to deeprig9
quote:
That's a whole lot of words to avoid
This is one of the least intellectually honest ways to go about continuing a conversation. You made a statement implying that I have the same choices that you had in last school year in your own district, which I showed to be false. Additionally, you asked me what the debunked video was that he was responding with, and I showed you a credible source offering up an explanation of how that clip was filled with false or unsupported statements and lacking in context.
"Working" is a relative term with something like this. The classic analogy here and one that shouldn't be new to you is seatbelts. Seatbelts don't prevent all fatalities in automobile accidents, and yet... still required in this country. And they do, in fact, save a lot of lives. For decades, schools have found it not only in their control to do so, but actively policed things like female dress code with straps too narrow or shorts too short. If we can be that concerned with what people wear, it would be ideal if we could show a modicum of concern for whether our schools are becoming the primary loci for viral spread amongst our school age children.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 6:05 pm to fibonaccisquared
Pick one:
A- cloth masks work to prevent sarscov2 transmission
B- they don't work.
No need for another admirable essay which is your style and I generally appreciate.
A or B.
A- cloth masks work to prevent sarscov2 transmission
B- they don't work.
No need for another admirable essay which is your style and I generally appreciate.
A or B.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 6:34 pm to fibonaccisquared
There are 2 international studies that credit cloth masks for catching 3% of the delta viral load. N95s actually do effect spray and spread of the covid virus.
As for schools, people think the masks do something. I would respect arguments for masks better if those clamoring for them say, "please wear a cloth mask because it will catch 3% of the covid that the wearer may spread".
The fact is that indoors, covid will be spread. If i am a parent and i want to advocate for my child, i would argue that the schools need to distance the kids. Put barriers up between kids. Stop cramming 20-30 kids at an indoor classroom and pretend like masks are the issue.
As for schools, people think the masks do something. I would respect arguments for masks better if those clamoring for them say, "please wear a cloth mask because it will catch 3% of the covid that the wearer may spread".
The fact is that indoors, covid will be spread. If i am a parent and i want to advocate for my child, i would argue that the schools need to distance the kids. Put barriers up between kids. Stop cramming 20-30 kids at an indoor classroom and pretend like masks are the issue.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 6:41 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:I hate to break it to you...but school has always been the primary loci for viral spread amongst our school age children.
it would be ideal if we could show a modicum of concern for whether our schools are becoming the primary loci for viral spread amongst our school age children.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 9:22 pm to deeprig9
quote:
Pick one:
A- cloth masks work to prevent sarscov2 transmission
B- they don't work.
No need for another admirable essay which is your style and I generally appreciate.
A or B.
That's cute rig... if reading comprehension is too much for you to process today...
Posted on 8/15/21 at 9:23 pm to fibonaccisquared
C) they prevent 3% of the virus from breaching the mask (unless you wear a n95?)
Posted on 8/15/21 at 9:56 pm to meansonny
quote:
There are 2 international studies that credit cloth masks for catching 3% of the delta viral load. N95s actually do effect spray and spread of the covid virus.
As for schools, people think the masks do something. I would respect arguments for masks better if those clamoring for them say, "please wear a cloth mask because it will catch 3% of the covid that the wearer may spread".
I dunno about everyone else's kid, but we've got some of the microfiber masks with replaceable filters. While they're not as effective as an n95, they're more effective than the "cloth masks" from the studies you referenced. More importantly, my kid will keep it on without complaining. Much like the old football-ism, the best ability is availability, the best mask for children is the one that you can get them to wear correctly and consistently.
Ultimately, there are a lot of factors involved here... in a perfect world, would I want all the things you mentioned? Absolutely... but I don't get to make the rules myself, so I have to work within the bounds of what is reasonable to ask of the school system. They're not hiring more teachers to offset the student teacher ratios, and even if they wanted to, I don't think they have the classrooms to functionally spread kids out more.
If you're asking me what I would have planned, it likely would have been something akin to what a lot of larger corporate offices are attempting to roll out.
1) Masks required... let's pretend I'm completely wrong, and masks are 0% effective. What is the harm done? Mild inconvenience? If I'm right, and masks have some effectiveness, whether that's outright prevention or simply reduction in viral load that a Covid+ individual passes off to those that they are around, any of those are improvements over zero mitigation strategy... If we can ask people to not smoke in restaurants, wear clothes, not piss or shite in the pool, at the present moment, wearing a mask would seem the least inconvenient thing I can ask of the public to offer some mitigation of spread.
2) Improved air filtration. Whether this is in the form of small hepa filters in each classroom or something else, as you said, an indoor classroom is going to be tough to prevent contact if someone is there all day and covid positive.
3) Rolling virtual class-size reduction. This one is controversial, because it seems like the teachers pushed back on this, but given that they are also pushing back on Cobb's decision to remove the facemask policy in large numbers (at least at our school), I think there was room to try this out in 1-2 classes per grade. Instead of going back to full capacity, my company and many others are using a system to verify vaccination status and essentially grant 2-3 days of office availability for individuals looking to return to the office from full time remote. Much like a college class schedule you might get MWF or TuTh (or some alternate mixture). You can state your preference and for some that are flexible, they might get a different schedule of available days week to week. Either way, you take a floor of 100+ employees down to 30-40 and have them spread out further. The same could be done with classrooms if you have willing teachers and students, which Cobb does have.
I know I'll be in the minority on this board all day every day on this subject, I'm ok with it. At least you come with an informed perspective here. The same can't be said of all. I don't understand the fascination of people looking for any study that supports their view when by and large, the medical community is pleading with people to do simple shite. Not just liberal/Dem physicians, but the *vast* majority of the medical community says that masks reduce the spread. Not eliminate, but reduce, and any reduction is better than zero reduction for as long as there are portions of the population who are completely unable to get vaccinated to get some degree of protection. My best friend growing up and a groomsman at my wedding is a Chief Medical Officer for the US Navy... even if I didn't have mountains of physicians and medical organizations supporting mask usage, I'd trust his opinion... put simply he said "the data says wear a mask."
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:09 pm to SneakyWaff1es
quote:
I hate to break it to you...but school has always been the primary loci for viral spread amongst our school age children.
Prior to last school year, for Flu, RSV, etc, you would be correct.
Last year, and specifically for Covid-19, the infection rate in schools simply mirrored the local areas based on some limited studies. LINK
It was not the "super spreader" arena that so many expected/predicted in 2020. Hard to tell how much of that was because the first version and first couple of variants seemed to be significantly less of a problem for children compared to the delta variant that we're seeing as primary now.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:11 pm to fibonaccisquared
I love your post and agree with your take.
Thats anecdotal. There is no data other than the 3% containment.
Im with you. A mask is an inconvenience at worst.
I was at a 12 year olds birthday party yesterday at Launch. I was the only person in a 600 person facility wearing a mask. I was wearing an N95. The facility was 87 degrees inside by 2pm. Humans have evolved for a hundred thousand years. I can tolerate a mask for 4 hours.
My son wore a cloth mask in. Didnt wear one playing on the facilities. He put it back on when they were in line at the front counter to redeem prizes for tickets. He has common sense. But the 3 hours in between playing on a jungle gym, he had no mask. But he is 12. He is vaccinated. And he is at an age where the virus is not a primary threat. The media makes the covid virus seem worse than it is for children. That RVS thing sounds worse to me and there is no media coverage on that. Why not?
quote:
My best friend growing up and a groomsman at my wedding is a Chief Medical Officer for the US Navy... even if I didn't have mountains of physicians and medical organizations supporting mask usage, I'd trust his opinion... put simply he said "the data says wear a mask."
Thats anecdotal. There is no data other than the 3% containment.
Im with you. A mask is an inconvenience at worst.
I was at a 12 year olds birthday party yesterday at Launch. I was the only person in a 600 person facility wearing a mask. I was wearing an N95. The facility was 87 degrees inside by 2pm. Humans have evolved for a hundred thousand years. I can tolerate a mask for 4 hours.
My son wore a cloth mask in. Didnt wear one playing on the facilities. He put it back on when they were in line at the front counter to redeem prizes for tickets. He has common sense. But the 3 hours in between playing on a jungle gym, he had no mask. But he is 12. He is vaccinated. And he is at an age where the virus is not a primary threat. The media makes the covid virus seem worse than it is for children. That RVS thing sounds worse to me and there is no media coverage on that. Why not?
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:19 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
the data says wear a mask
quote:
I don't understand the fascination of people looking for any study that supports their vie
So he found data that he likes. You agree with it so you liste
This is a pretty simple thing that people are trying to turn into a huge scientific argument. A virus is either airborne or it isn't. If it's airborne, anything short of a properly fitted n95 isn't helping you. If it isn't airborne, it's too heavy to float more than 6 feet away. If you stay 6 feet away from said non-airborne virus, you're fine. If you're within 6 feet and someone sneezes on you, you're probably not fine even if you're masked because your eyeballs are probably not masked. That leaves masks only really helpful if it's the sick person wearing the mask and even then, they're spewing droplets through the sides, top and bottom of their masks. And straight through if it's a cloth mask.
You're using a lot of words to make a simple argument. Generally that means you don't actually have an argument.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:24 pm to meansonny
quote:There's nothing new about RSV. It's been killing babies and making grown ups sneeze for decades. Since it's generally a mild thing for adults, no one cares. It's probably the leading cause for pneumonia in infants. Despite the news, very little is actually done for the sake of our children.
That RVS thing sounds worse to me and there is no media coverage on that. Why not?
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:37 pm to meansonny
quote:
Thats anecdotal. There is no data other than the 3% containment.
Thus the reason I moved it to the absolute bottom of my post. I guess I need to start putting asterisks anywhere I stray into the realm of "this didn't come from a scientific paper" in my posts...
Yes. It is obviously anecdotal. But to say that 3% is the only data, this is false. There are studies on humidity levels created by mask usage which can convey some benefits for example. There are all sorts of data points available around spread in areas where masks have been required vs not required across facilities that he has access to. The biggest change and where we have the lowest amount of information right now is on the aerosolization of the delta variant. Prior versions were thought to be only transmitted in any significant number by the droplets, which even low quality cloth masks offer some degree of protection. Delta is presumed to be spreading via aerosol particles which as you noted, in an enclosed classroom, it's going to be tough as hell to prevent spread if that is a significant source of infection. (Thus the benefit of things like portable hepa filters for example.) quote:
Im with you. A mask is an inconvenience at worst.
I was at a 12 year olds birthday party yesterday at Launch. I was the only person in a 600 person facility wearing a mask. I was wearing an N95. The facility was 87 degrees inside by 2pm. Humans have evolved for a hundred thousand years. I can tolerate a mask for 4 hours.
Ooof. Not sure what Launch is, but assuming one of the trampoline party places or something? Good choice on the N95 given the heavy breathing, screaming, etc likely to be going on there on a loop. Albeit likely a less than pleasant one.
quote:
My son wore a cloth mask in. Didnt wear one playing on the facilities. He put it back on when they were in line at the front counter to redeem prizes for tickets. He has common sense. But the 3 hours in between playing on a jungle gym, he had no mask. But he is 12. He is vaccinated. And he is at an age where the virus is not a primary threat. The media makes the covid virus seem worse than it is for children. That RVS thing sounds worse to me and there is no media coverage on that. Why not?
Understandable. Again, as soon as the vaccine is available for 5 year olds and I see what the data looks like, we'll be considering when to get my oldest vaccinated. Will still be a ways off before our youngest is eligible, and not sure I want to be the first in line to get hers either, just knowing the variables are so much different when they're that little.
Yeah... the RSV thing is weird, because we're quite early from when we typically see case volumes increase for it. I think that unfortunately, Covid "sells" right now, so it's getting wrapped up in the coverage of "full ICU/ER/etc" without offering the context, as we briefly mentioned a few pages back. I'll try to bug my neighbor about it to see if he's heard anything at the hospital on what the reason is for it... whether it's a stronger version of what they see or if it has something to do with people being apart for so long and this summer more and more people resuming "normal-ish" behaviors and their younger kids simply hadn't been exposed to it. IIRC, it's one of those bugs that you or I might get and feel like we've got the sniffles for a couple of days or so, might even shake it off as allergies, but for young kids, and especially under 6 months can be very problematic.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:48 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
There are all sorts of data points available around spread in areas where masks have been required vs not required across facilities that he has access to.
I havent seen any data points indicating masks are beneficial. Id be happy to read up.
Ive seen evidence that data points are loose (i.e. florida has a spike in july and august while new york doesnt. New york spikes in fall-winter. The commonality is that florida residents flock to air conditioning in july. New york residents flock indoors when the cold november winds blow). Lack of masks were attempted to be a reason why florida struggles in July-August. But those same scientists and consequent journalists ignore what happens up north during cold months.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 10:56 pm to SneakyWaff1es
quote:
So he found data that he likes. You agree with it so you liste
Again... if that was the only person supporting my viewpoint, you might have a great argument... but that's simply not the case. Also, see above. If you're going to quote things, at least grab the whole statement... "even if I didn't have mountains of physicians and medical organizations supporting mask usage..."
I said I would trust his opinion in absence of those things as a credible source. If I have one credible source saying wear it and others saying don't, then I'm going to be a lot more curious than I am decided.
quote:
This is a pretty simple thing that people are trying to turn into a huge scientific argument. A virus is either airborne or it isn't. If it's airborne, anything short of a properly fitted n95 isn't helping you. If it isn't airborne, it's too heavy to float more than 6 feet away. If you stay 6 feet away from said non-airborne virus, you're fine. If you're within 6 feet and someone sneezes on you, you're probably not fine even if you're masked because your eyeballs are probably not masked. That leaves masks only really helpful if it's the sick person wearing the mask and even then, they're spewing droplets through the sides, top and bottom of their masks. And straight through if it's a cloth mask.
You're making the case for me though. If *everyone* wears a mask, then *some* degree of protection is conveyed. There is not enough research available at this point to say high numbers of infection are happening from aerosolized Covid compared to droplets. If you can reduce droplet transmission that is a net improvement. The schools are buying masks and making them available on buses and at the school... so it's not an availability or cost thing. Again... at worst, it's an ineffective limitation (~3%) and a mild inconvenience.
As to the Sneezing/spewing droplets... ultimately, as was discussed a couple of pages ago, unfortunately inconsiderate fricks are aplenty... send their kids to school, sports, etc with some tylenol and essentially saying "frick everyone else here..." But at least in our district I know there are a good number of parents trying to do the right thing as well. If you're presenting symptoms, don't go... at least that way, you're talking about normal breathing/speaking with a mask, rather than forceful coughing/sneezing. Given some of the case studies on singing, music classes might be a poor idea indoors right now, as apparently singing for sustained periods seems to produce higher aerosolized particle numbers based on one story I was reading.
quote:
You're using a lot of words to make a simple argument. Generally that means you don't actually have an argument.
This is silly. To quote one of the greats, "I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one."
It takes a lot more effort to write concisely and still convey the same point. No one here is changing their mind in a meaningful way based on what I type. Why on earth would I then go to the trouble of drafting, editing, and consolidating?
Posted on 8/15/21 at 11:08 pm to meansonny
quote:
I havent seen any data points indicating masks are beneficial. Id be happy to read up.
That sentence was specifically referencing DOD data that he has access to directly. Presumably there will be a write-up/paper on it at some point, though when and if it's publicly available, I do not know. If I see anything of note though, I'll PM it to you on Talkn.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 11:16 pm to meansonny
Out of curiosity, which paper(s) did the 3% figure come from? Not a scientific study, but was trying to find a "non-liberal" source for content on masks + delta and found this OpEd over on The Hill (not a bastion of liberaldom to my knowledge).
LINK
Thought this was just an interesting section, and no clue where specifically he got his numbers.
Again... singular source, and not sure where he's pulling his numbers from so not trying to say this is definitive, but it's not like he's unqualified to give his opinion either.
LINK
Thought this was just an interesting section, and no clue where specifically he got his numbers.
quote:
How about masks? The new CDC guidance says that everyone, whether you are vaccinated or not, should wear a mask indoors in public areas of substantial or high transmission.
Despite questions about how effective masking is, we know that, among many factors, mask compliance is the major one for transmission. If people do not wear masks, that crucial layer of protection does not exist. How good are masks in preventing transmission? Medical grade masks and cloth face coverings are 57 to 58 percent effective in protecting others and 37 to 50 percent effective in protecting the user. N95 masks are better, with 86 to 90 percent source-control efficacy and 96 to 99 percent personal- protection efficacy.
Thus, where masks are necessary (like, for example, when I am seeing a patient with COVID-19), a fitted N95 or its equivalent offers the highest level of protection.
At a population level, it has been estimated that if everyone wore a cloth mask, the transmission would be reduced by about 10 to 20 percent. While this may seem small, it is substantial when there is significant transmission.
quote:
Carlos del Rio, M.D., FIDSA, is vice president of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. He is a professor of medicine at Emory University School of Medicine and of global health and epidemiology at Emory’s Rollins School of Public Health, principal investigator and co-director of the Emory Center for AIDS Research, and co-principal investigator of the Emory-CDC HIV Clinical Trials Unit and Emory Vaccine and Treatment Evaluation Unit. He is also the international secretary of the National Academy of Medicine and the Chair of the PEPFAR Scientific Advisory Board.
Again... singular source, and not sure where he's pulling his numbers from so not trying to say this is definitive, but it's not like he's unqualified to give his opinion either.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 11:18 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
What is the harm done? Mild inconvenience? If I'm right, and masks have some effectiveness, whether that's outright prevention or simply reduction in viral load that a Covid+ individual passes off to those that they are around, any of those are improvements over zero mitigation strategy... If we can ask people to not smoke in restaurants, wear clothes, not piss or shite in the pool, at the present moment, wearing a mask would seem the least inconvenient thing I can ask of the public to offer some mitigation of spread.
Mild inconvenience? What are you talking about?
These masks are making me feel like I live in Communist China… it’s the exact same thing.
Posted on 8/15/21 at 11:22 pm to Dawgsontop34
quote:
Mild inconvenience? What are you talking about?
These masks are making me feel like I live in Communist China… it’s the exact same thing.
I've missed you my e-friend.
Hope you're doing well. One day this shitstorm will be behind us and everyone on either side of the arguments should get together drink a beer or 37 and argue about shite like whether we're truly going to transform our offense.
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