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re: Peyton vs. Eli "in the clutch"
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:23 pm to Henry Jones Jr
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:23 pm to Henry Jones Jr
quote:
This season is the reason his rating has gone down. You almost cant' count it because he was the only one on the team trying.
2012: 72.8
2011: 76.9
2010: 69.8
2009: 77.1
2008: 85.3
2007: 67.6
Other than 2008, he was in the bottom half of the league every year and among the five worst twice.
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Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:27 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
among the five worst twice.
Those were years his o-line was terrible. He's only had a really good offensive line maybe four years with the Giants.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
Good Lord you are ridiculous. I have no clue why you think the scientific skepticism should be applied to athletic evaluation. "Personal observation", not stats, is the fricking reason Manning was drafted #1.
Is it fool-proof? Of course not. Neither are stats. Personal observatiom and qualitative factors, when its comes to evaluating athletes, is given much more weight that metrics. In the real world.
We're not proving the existence of God or quarks here. We're talking football. Ask a GM if he cares about a player's headspace.
Is it fool-proof? Of course not. Neither are stats. Personal observatiom and qualitative factors, when its comes to evaluating athletes, is given much more weight that metrics. In the real world.
We're not proving the existence of God or quarks here. We're talking football. Ask a GM if he cares about a player's headspace.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:28 pm to Henry Jones Jr
quote:
No it couldn't be.
So your theory is that most NFL QBs, given great protection, would NOT be able to play well in crucial situations?
I simply do not see it. The rules favor QBs these days, and most starting caliber QBs are capable of consistently completing passes with protection. It's why teams with poor pass rushes tend to give up lots of yards to pretty much anyone and why the playoffs every year are littered with the best pass rushing teams.
Most starting QBs are capable of playing at a high level with protection. What seperates QBs is largely how they perform when not under ideal conditions. It's why guys like Matt Schaub, Matt Stafford and Eli Manning cannot be considered elite QBs because they regularly perform poorly when pressured by defenses.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:30 pm to Henry Jones Jr
quote:
Those were years his o-line was terrible. He's only had a really good offensive line maybe four years with the Giants.
His line was very good from 2008-2010, but only once in those years was he anywhere near good under pressure.
And again, these are considering ONLY plays in which he was under pressure. The amount of time he spent under pressure during the year is irrelevant, because the stats don't count anything he did when not under pressure.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:30 pm to Roger Klarvin
Eli is better than Peyton.
/thread
/thread
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:33 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Do you believe everyone who says they saw a UFO or bigfoot? I'm sure some of those people ACTUALLY BELIEVE they saw a UFO or bigfoot, but there is zero reason to actually believe they did until someone presents tangible evidence that such things exist.
I bet you use this degrading discrediting approach frequently on Reddit don't you, Richard Dawkins Jr
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:33 pm to Roger Klarvin
Here's some stats...
- Peyton Manning -
Playoff Record as Starting QB: 1999 (0-1), 2000 (0-1), 2002 (0-1), 2003 (2-1), 2004 (1-1), 2005 (0-1), 2006 (4-0), 2007 (0-1), 2008 (0-1), 2009 (2-1), 2010 (0-1), 2012 (0-1), 2013 (2-1)
Playoff Comebacks: 2006 (1)
Playoff Game-Winning Drives: 2006 (1)
- Eli Manning -
Playoff Record as Starting QB: 2005 (0-1), 2006 (0-1), 2007 (4-0), 2008 (0-1), 2011 (4-0)
Playoff Comebacks: 2007 (2)
Playoff Game-Winning Drives: 2007 (3)
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:34 pm to Roger Klarvin
Damn ya'll 2 still going at it.
Here is my 2 cents. There are intangibles you have to consider in a competitive arena. How much "give a frick" does one player, one phase, one team have. let's take "heart" as one "intangible". How I would define "heart" would be the unwillingness to give in. That is something every coach across the board of sports looks for. It can't be quantified, yet it can bee seen, it's effects can be seen. Take Marshawn Lynch, that motherfricker refuses to go down. It is not one thing imo, it is the willingness not to give up, the preparation to have his body in prime form no matter the occasion and a certain disregard for personal safety. Look at the greats in all sports across the board, they all have the "intangible". It is not a stat but a preparation, mindset and skill to do what has to be done. As to the point of the convo. regarding Peyton and Eli, Eli has a switch and Peyton does not. Peyton plays the same for every game, every year, every postseason. When Eli gets to the post season he plays harder, not better mind you. He plays with more give a damn.
Here is my 2 cents. There are intangibles you have to consider in a competitive arena. How much "give a frick" does one player, one phase, one team have. let's take "heart" as one "intangible". How I would define "heart" would be the unwillingness to give in. That is something every coach across the board of sports looks for. It can't be quantified, yet it can bee seen, it's effects can be seen. Take Marshawn Lynch, that motherfricker refuses to go down. It is not one thing imo, it is the willingness not to give up, the preparation to have his body in prime form no matter the occasion and a certain disregard for personal safety. Look at the greats in all sports across the board, they all have the "intangible". It is not a stat but a preparation, mindset and skill to do what has to be done. As to the point of the convo. regarding Peyton and Eli, Eli has a switch and Peyton does not. Peyton plays the same for every game, every year, every postseason. When Eli gets to the post season he plays harder, not better mind you. He plays with more give a damn.
This post was edited on 2/3/14 at 6:37 pm
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:38 pm to genro
quote:
Good Lord you are ridiculous. I have no clue why you think the scientific skepticism should be applied to athletic evaluation. "Personal observation", not stats, is the fricking reason Manning was drafted #1.
Is it fool-proof? Of course not. Neither are stats. Personal observatiom and qualitative factors, when its comes to evaluating athletes, is given much more weight that metrics. In the real world.
We're not proving the existence of God or quarks here. We're talking football. Ask a GM if he cares about a player's headspace.
First of all, you aren't an NFL GM. Comparing your observations to those that resulted in Manning being taken #1 is simply intellectually dishonest.
Second, yes, FACTS can be used to evaluate athletic achievements. Throwing an interception, or a touchdown, is a FACT. It is inarguable and 100% verifiable. Judging one player from a another based on "the look in his eyes" or how far his shoulders drop when he throws a pick is not fact, but AT BEST educated judgement which can be interpreted many ways by many people.
If your method were so reliable, hell even if it were 50% reliable, we wouldn't see nearly as many busts, nearly as many GMs fired and nearly as many meltdowns by players previously thought of as clutch.
Essentially, you are arguing that confirmation bias should be a valid method of evaluating football players. Once you make up your mind on a player, you view everything through the lens of your evaluation of him. Nothing Eli Manning could do would change your mind about him.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:40 pm to Rebelfan1985
quote:
I bet you use this degrading discrediting approach frequently on Reddit don't you, Richard Dawkins Jr
frick Reddit and frick Richard Dawkins. Both can DIAF and RIH.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:46 pm to 10888bge
quote:
It can't be quantified, yet it can bee seen, it's effects can be seen. Take Marshawn Lynch, that motherfricker refuses to go down. It is not one thing imo, it is the willingness not to give up, the preparation to have his body in prime form no matter the occasion and a certain disregard for personal safety.
The difference is that I can look at Marshawn Lynch's YAC and how many tackles he breaks and either prove or disprove this argument. I see that Lynch leads the league in YAC and breaks an average of 5 tackles a game and say yes, you are correct. This statement about Lynch is both under the specific player's personal control and be shown with facts.
Now, the statement "Eli Manning is more clutch than Peyton because of his attitude on the field and the look in his eyes" is not something that can be proven or disproven. Moreover, the stats that DO exist remotely related to such things say exactly the opposite.
That does not automatically make it untrue, but it means that I have no reason to believe it is true. If you believe it fine, but the fact is that "clutch" involves team play. it involves blocking, catching, defense getting stops, and even mistakes the other team makes. It is not something one person controls and is not something that can be quantified like Marshawn Lynch's running style can.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 6:55 pm to Roger Klarvin
Both of you are right. Stats play a huge part in evaluating a player and determining their worth, ie "legacy". But, qualified opinion is just as important. Let go to Hypothetical land, it is the only place to have an apple to apple comparison. 2 QB's same winning percentage same TD-INT ratio, same post season record. One QB is a "game manager" ( I hate that fricking term) the other is "the Clutch QB" who makes all the plays yadda yadda yadda. Which one will you pick. THe guy who knows how to feel the game out, who knows when to pass when to audible out of a play and safely and effectively leads the team to victory. Or the Gunslinger who has the Daring 4th 1/4 comeback from 14 to win the game, who made bad decisions and good ones. Who fires up the team and drives for the win. Either way both are Clutch in their own way. One can manage and bee calm cool and collected under pressure and the other can cowboy up.
Posted on 2/3/14 at 7:06 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The difference is that I can look at Marshawn Lynch's YAC and how many tackles he breaks and either prove or disprove this argument. I see that Lynch leads the league in YAC and breaks an average of 5 tackles a game and say yes, you are correct. This statement about Lynch is both under the specific player's personal control and be shown with facts.
The Stats are an effect of the intangible. How does he get the YAC. Tyree's superbowl catch is another effect of intangibles IMO. He isn't a great receiver stat wise but he had the heart to not let that ball drop. Now we can use stats to quantify his intangible. Arm strength v. torque of defender, adrenalin amount, muscle fatigue ( training or lack of training).
quote:
Now, the statement "Eli Manning is more clutch than Peyton because of his attitude on the field and the look in his eyes" is not something that can be proven or disproven. Moreover, the stats that DO exist remotely related to such things say exactly the opposite.
I am not going to use the "clutch" term because I think it is bullshite, personally. I said it before, Eli has a switch, Peyton does not. Peyton plays the same all year + post season long. Eli plays, seems to play, much better in the post season.
To your point of team sport, hell yes I agree with you. The only things that a QB can control are the times before and up to the ball leaves his hand. That includes calling out protections and audible out of plays etc..
But to overlook "intangibles" as emotional is ridiculous.
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