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Posted on 12/28/17 at 6:18 pm to Perfect Circle
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When you say culture, are talking about WASP?
When I say culture I'm talking about one's environment. If you're living in Alabama, the religion of your culture is obviously Christianity - mostly Protestant. If you were living in India, it would be Hinduism.
That you became a Christian after your period of soul searching is about as surprising to me as seeing the Sun rise in the morning.
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But yes, Christianity is unlike any other religion. It is unique in that Salvation is a free gift, not contingent on any works, or adherence to a long list of strict behaviors one must follow.
All religions have unique and borrowed concepts.
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Well, if you loved someone, wouldn't you want them to love you back of their own accord? You wouldn't want to force them to love you, because that's not love at all.
First of all, I don't know how much love is involved when the alternative to being on God's side is being banished to Hell for eternity.
Second, explain in some sensible way (not related to the influence of culture) why people in Alabama are so overwhelmingly in love with the Christian God while so many people from eastern cultures couldn't care less.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 7:43 pm to Globetrotter747
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Second, explain in some sensible way (not related to the influence of culture) why people in Alabama are so overwhelmingly in love with the Christian God while so many people from eastern cultures couldn't care less.
Religion is huge in Eastern cultures though. The largest Muslim communities are in Asia. Even after A horrific few decades with Mao in power traditional Chinese religion is still strong. Tibet was a theocracy until China invaded. India and Pakistan are hovering on the brink of perpetual war due to religious differences.
I get it if you want to say Christian communities in the East... but there are rather large numbers of Christians scattered throughout Asia. By really shitty luck Nagasaki was a major Christian center in Japan. The fastest growing faith in India is... Baptists.
Indonesia and Malaysia are heavily Muslim, which is Christianity with a mild work over.
I do get what you are trying to say, but Christianity and its offshoot religion, the Muslim faith, are doing just fine around the world. As odd as it sounds, Jesus Christ is considered the most holy figure in the Muslim faith.
Whether you believe in that or not, and I am not saying what I believe one way or the other, Religion is a major influence on the decisions of billions of people around the world, especially the Judeo/Christian/Muslim faith.
Also you should kick yourself in the butt. Salvation in Christianity is not so much a free gift but one that is offered that you have to accept. Your reply should have focused around is a man who accepts Christ but is otherwise a complete scumbag, better then an atheist who does good all his days?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 10:41 pm to Globetrotter747
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First of all, I don't know how much love is involved when the alternative to being on God's side is being banished to Hell for eternity.
Are you saying an all-loving God can't also be just? Eternal separation from God is a last resort, but it is the only option for unrepentant humanity.
God doesn't want to be eternally separated from us, so He gives us every opportunity to repent, and receive forgiveness. The way to Hell is well marked, but people choose to take it anyway. When people choose to live in opposition to God, rejecting all prompts to repent, they choose their own consequences. They are without excuse.
But God loves us so much he went to the extraordinary length of assuming human flesh, and stepped down into darkness to show us the way.
Jesus was born to die. His death erases our sins. He took the punishment you and I deserve. If men could save themselves, there would be no reason for Jesus to have to die. For believers, our sins died with Jesus on the cross.
God is Holy, set apart, pure. As such, He cannot allow sin to enter into Heaven. Were sin to be allowed in Heaven, along with it would come the curse that the Earth is under. Heaven would become just like Earth.
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...explain in some sensible way...why people in Alabama are so overwhelmingly in love with the Christian God while so many people from eastern cultures could care less.
I honestly don't know if anything I say is going to be sensible to you. But, I think more people in Alabama love Jesus because more people in Alabama know Jesus. The loving is in the knowing. Most people in eastern cultures don't know Jesus.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 11:40 pm to Arksulli
Islam isn't an offshoot of Christianity, though it could be considered an offshoot of Judaism.
How did you come by this opinion? Read my previous post to globetrotter. Too tired to recap all that.
Real Christians can be known by the fruits they produce. Galatians 5:22 says, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, considering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...
Yeah, occasionally Christians do scumbag things, but it's not the rule of thumb. I would question the legitimacy of someone's Christianity who displayed consistent scumbag behavior.
Again, Salvation isn't earned by good behavior. Remember, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. The Christian sins just like the atheist sins. The difference is, the Christian has felt shame for his sins and in repentance is trusting Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to cover his sin when He stands before the Lord for judgement.
Psalms 103:12 says, "as far as the east is from the west, so far He removes our transgressions from us." In other words, God forgets our sins!
The atheist, disbelieving in God or any need for salvation, carries unrepentant sin when facing eternity. Therefore, because of his own actions he will face eternity seperate from God.
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Salvation in Christianity is not so much a free gift but one that is offered you have to accept.
How did you come by this opinion? Read my previous post to globetrotter. Too tired to recap all that.
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...is a man who accepts Christ but is otherwise a complete scumbag...
Real Christians can be known by the fruits they produce. Galatians 5:22 says, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, considering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...
Yeah, occasionally Christians do scumbag things, but it's not the rule of thumb. I would question the legitimacy of someone's Christianity who displayed consistent scumbag behavior.
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...better than an atheist who does good all his days.
Again, Salvation isn't earned by good behavior. Remember, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. The Christian sins just like the atheist sins. The difference is, the Christian has felt shame for his sins and in repentance is trusting Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to cover his sin when He stands before the Lord for judgement.
Psalms 103:12 says, "as far as the east is from the west, so far He removes our transgressions from us." In other words, God forgets our sins!
The atheist, disbelieving in God or any need for salvation, carries unrepentant sin when facing eternity. Therefore, because of his own actions he will face eternity seperate from God.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 10:37 am to Perfect Circle
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Islam isn't an offshoot of Christianity, though it could be considered an offshoot of Judaism.
Well considering Jesus is the most mentioned name in the Koran, or Quran, or however you want to spell it, then they certainly must be off base by quite a bit if they aren't an offshoot of Christianity.
Jesus is considered more holy then Muhammed. Where you would disagree with them on is that they don't believe that Jesus was a divine being. They believe he was the "perfect man" without sin and he gets mentioned twice as much as another prophet you may have heard of named Moses. It might be offensive to think the Muslims hold Jesus in such high esteem, but there you have it.
Now while some would be up in arms about Jesus not being considered a divine being, really only one of the Gospels, one that most suspect was written over a century after Jesus had died, ever claimed he was the Son of God.
It was not codified in the Christian faith that Jesus was a divine being until Jesus and everyone who actually knew him was long since dead and gone. And that happened when Christianity was becoming more popular in the Roman Empire. Where it was considered fairly commonplace for Emperors and the like to be considered... divine beings.
But it was said so in the bible. Well different versions of the bible were written at different times. The King James version is different from the Catholic version which, in turn, is different from the Greek Orthodox version, that has differences from the Russian Orthodox version. And those are just the big 4.
As to atheists automatically going to hell... OK, hypothetically an atheists develops a cure for some form of cancer, or alzheimers, or some other horrific medical condition and donates most of the money he makes to feeding starving children in Detroit.
Hypothetically a Christian, we'll call him Moy Roore, is a dingbat who likes to get his freak on with underaged girls.
By your standards the pedophile goes to Heaven, while the man who cured cancer goes to Hell. Would you rather have the gent who cured cancer living next to you or Moy Roore?
Jesus himself seemed fairly fond of people who weren't Jewish and wouldn't be expected to be his religious followers.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 11:36 am to Perfect Circle
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Religion is huge in Eastern cultures though.
I know. All that does is support two key points I have made on this thread and others:
1. A religion clearly does not have to be factual or have the influence of a deity to gain an enormous number of adherents.
2. Because the main religions are mostly concentrated in regional areas, their adherents aren't even close to being evenly distributed across the globe. Culture is obviously the driving force here, not the individual.
Ya know, Hindus account for about 15% of the world's population. That means about 15 out of every 100 people I know should be a Hindu. But yet, I don't know one single Hindu - and very few Muslims (and even they had Muslim parents). But statistically speaking, I should know many Hindus and Muslims.
But the cultures that harbor your large Muslim and Hindu populations are so radically different from what we see here in Alabama that the chances of your average born and bred Alabamian adopting one of those two religions is almost zero.
It baffles me how people can't take a step back and see religion for what it is: a largely cultural exercise without any real distinguishing basis for belief. My only theory (at least with the Christians who surround me) is that they are so desperate to believe that they and their loved ones will survive death and that a celestial father figure of sorts is looking out for them in tough times that they will usually resort to irrational thinking before abandoning their beliefs.
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Are you saying an all-loving God can't also be just? Eternal separation from God is a last resort, but it is the only option for unrepentant humanity. God doesn't want to be eternally separated from us, so He gives us every opportunity to repent, and receive forgiveness. The way to Hell is well marked, but people choose to take it anyway. When people choose to live in opposition to God, rejecting all prompts to repent, they choose their own consequences. They are without excuse.
Perfect Circle, you are an Alabamian. You are in the middle of the most hardcore Christian area on this planet. Here, Christianity is reinforced everywhere. Almost everyone around you is at least nominally Christian.
Someone from Alabama saying someone from Baghdad or Mumbai has no excuse for not being a Christian is about like saying those same people have no excuse for not being proficient English speakers.
How much does the average Alabamian know - really know - about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.? Not jack shite, and you know it. So why should you expect people from tucked away parts on other side of the world to know much about Christianity and be expected to follow it just as closely as you and other Alabamians?
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I honestly don't know if anything I say is going to be sensible to you. But, I think more people in Alabama love Jesus because more people in Alabama know Jesus. The loving is in the knowing. Most people in eastern cultures don't know Jesus.
People love what's familiar and comfortable to them and that includes religion. People don't often break out of their comfort zone, which (once again) is why religion is so cultural.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 1:12 pm to Arksulli
Yeah, I've researched, a little, Jesus'(Isa) place in Islam. His name is mentioned in the Koran something like 5 times the number of times the name of Mohammed in mentioned. It's not at all offensive to me, the reverence they have for Isa, I just wish they would believe the Gospel.
I was going back a bit further saying Islam was an offshoot of Judaism. Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael. Jewish descent is from Isaac, Muslim descent is from Ishmael.
While, Jesus never said, "I am God." That doesn't mean He didn't claim divinity. This is the very reason the Pharisees condemned Him to death. In John 10:30-33, Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." The Pharisees reaction to Jesus's claim to divinity, was to pick up stones to kill him. They said, "you, a mere man, claim to be God." They obviously understood what Jesus was claiming concerning Himself.
In John 8:58, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth...before Abraham was born, I Am!" Again, the Jews began to pick up stones, because they believed Jesus was committing blasphemy by claiming to be God.
You present a different analogy concerning a "good" atheist and a "bad" Christian. My response is the same.
While finding a cure for disease is a good thing, good works does not erase unrepentant sin. You may not like this, but it doesn't change fact that it's True.
Moy Roore's sins will be forgiven should he repent (turn away, and not go back). If Moy Roore repents, but continues to get his freak on, did ol' Moy ever really repent?
Yes He Is!
Not understanding what you're trying to say.
I was going back a bit further saying Islam was an offshoot of Judaism. Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael. Jewish descent is from Isaac, Muslim descent is from Ishmael.
While, Jesus never said, "I am God." That doesn't mean He didn't claim divinity. This is the very reason the Pharisees condemned Him to death. In John 10:30-33, Jesus said, "I and the Father are One." The Pharisees reaction to Jesus's claim to divinity, was to pick up stones to kill him. They said, "you, a mere man, claim to be God." They obviously understood what Jesus was claiming concerning Himself.
In John 8:58, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth...before Abraham was born, I Am!" Again, the Jews began to pick up stones, because they believed Jesus was committing blasphemy by claiming to be God.
You present a different analogy concerning a "good" atheist and a "bad" Christian. My response is the same.
While finding a cure for disease is a good thing, good works does not erase unrepentant sin. You may not like this, but it doesn't change fact that it's True.
Moy Roore's sins will be forgiven should he repent (turn away, and not go back). If Moy Roore repents, but continues to get his freak on, did ol' Moy ever really repent?
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Jesus himself seemed fairly fond of people who weren't Jewish...
Yes He Is!
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...and wouldn't be expected to be his religious followers.
Not understanding what you're trying to say.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 1:27 pm to Old Sarge
Powerful blood magic.
Posted on 12/29/17 at 2:50 pm to Globetrotter747
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1. A religion clearly does not have to be factual or have the influence of a diety to gain an enormous number of adherents.
Depends on your definition of religion. Name me one religion that doesn't claim a diety, and I'll show you a philosophy.
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2. Because the main religions are mostly concentrated in regional areas, their adherents aren't even close to being evenly distributed across the globe. Culture is obviously the driving force here, not the individual.
I disagree. This may have been true 100 years ago, before the internet and air travel, but its becoming less so every year.
Plus, it's just a big world. The idea of totally, evenly dispersed anything is unrealistic, including religions. Fact, despite the efforts of Christian missionaries, little over half the globe has heard the Gospel. But this is changing daily due to more rapid methods of information dissemination, and travel.
I'm not specifically talking about you here, but it equally baffles me that people can discount the idea of an all-loving, omni-everything God, because it doesn't make sense, or it isn't rational.
It seems your worldview is based on logic and the tangible alone. Why limit yourself? Open your mind.
You never answered my question. Do you discount even the possibilty that there is an Eternal Spritual Intelligence that is greater than humanity?
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Someone from Alabama saying someone from Baghdad or Mumbai has no excuse for not being a Christian...
When I said people have no excuse, I was referring to people who have received God's special revelation...they've heard the Gospel, understand it, but have rejected it. This wouldn't apply to people who've never heard the Gospel. These people have received God's general revelation...that God exists and has impressed His moral compass on them.
God has hardwired us to believe this. Even the most primitive people, living in the most remote places on earth, since the dawn of man, have looked to the heavens, or nature, and worshipped something bigger than them.
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How much does the average Alabamian know-really know-about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.?
They know what they want to know...I've studied all 3. Two of those religions aren't sending missionaries, they will remain regional before they eventually cease to have adherents.
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So why should you expect people...on the other side of the world to know much about Christianity...?
I don't. That's why we're taking the message to them...that's the definition of evangelical Christianity. It's based in Matthew 28:16-20, " Go therefore and make disciples unto all nations, baptizing them to the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I've commanded you."
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People don't often break out of their comfort zone.
As Christians, Jesus urges us to break out of our comfort zone. Christianity teaches we are called to resist our human nature. I'll tell you what, present the Gospel to absolute strangers and tell me how comfortable you feel.
Trotter, even though I don't agree with you, I respect your beliefs. Can you respect mine? Can you discuss Christianity without belittling or being hostile toward my beliefs? Because I would welcome an honest dialogue, free of insults and derision. If not, then this
point/ counter-point could go on ad infinitum.
I sincerely hope you have a wonderful New Year.
Posted on 12/31/17 at 8:04 pm to Perfect Circle
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Depends on your definition of religion. Name me one religion that doesn't claim a diety, and I'll show you a philosophy.
I don't think that's important. A person's answers to the big questions (whether they involve a deity or just being content in life) are heavily influenced by culture. Call it a religion or a philosophy, but it's the same sandwich.
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I disagree. This may have been true 100 years ago, before the internet and air travel, but its becoming less so every year. Plus, it's just a big world. The idea of totally, evenly dispersed anything is unrealistic, including religions.
But shouldn't Christianity be an exception? After all, the head of the Christian PR department is supposedly an omnipotent being capable of contacting anyone at any time in any way - verbally, visually or emotionally - all at the same time. He also supposedly cares deeply about the eternal souls of all people.
So why is God so dependent on twenty-first century technology and fallible, self-appointed representatives to spread His message in a way that clearly has not given everyone a fair shot at salvation?
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It seems your worldview is based on logic and the tangible alone. Why limit yourself? Open your mind.
When I look at human history what I see is a constant retreat of the supernatural. A long time ago people used to believe that deities were responsible for a variety of everyday things - thunder and lightning, for example - that we now know have natural causes. A lot of Christians used to believe - and some still do - in such things as a global flood and a literal creation having occurred within the last few thousand years, which is in stark conflict with modern science.
And then you have countless people arguing a variety of contradictory views about God, His message, etc. You even have people within certain religions - like Catholics and Protestants, Sunnis and Shiites - who can't get on the same page.
And then there's no God around to sort it out. Is there any wonder why someone like myself who doesn't need to believe in God to get through the night or use any sort of religious text for guidance (just good common sense and respect for fellow man) doesn't take religion very seriously?
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You never answered my question. Do you discount even the possibilty that there is an Eternal Spritual Intelligence that is greater than humanity?
I don't completely rule out anything, but I think the chances of the Christian God existing are extremely slim.
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When I said people have no excuse, I was referring to people who have received God's special revelation...they've heard the Gospel, understand it, but have rejected it.
Then people here in the Bible Belt should count themselves lucky that the vast majority will be born into a Christian culture and will have very little influence from any other religions that might cause them to go astray.
To think that someone from India should be held to the same standard as someone from Alabama just because he heard a five minute pitch from some random Christian missionary is asinine.
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These people have received God's general revelation...that God exists and has impressed His moral compass on them.
I think morality is merely an extension of the simple recognition that we are better off working together and that to do so we must have structured societies. If it were every man for himself and we didn't have laws to bind us and keep us straight, then we certainly wouldn't have achieved so much as a species.
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Even the most primitive people, living in the most remote places on earth, since the dawn of man, have looked to the heavens, or nature, and worshipped something bigger than them.
As I mentioned in an earlier point, the things we attribute to God have consistently retreated against the progress of science. There's no reason to think this won't continue.
I think that at some point in the future people will look at our time and think we're ignorant for believing that a man was the son of deity in much the same way we think people who lived in the past were ignorant for believing in Egyptian gods, Greek gods, etc.
It won't be any time soon, but I suspect eventually (if we don't destroy ourselves first) people will abandon all the God stuff. I mean, 5,000 years from now are people still going to say, "Yeah, Jesus is coming back any day now"?
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They know what they want to know...I've studied all 3. Two of those religions aren't sending missionaries, they will remain regional before they eventually cease to have adherents.
But Islam is growing faster than Christianity and is poised to overtake it sometime this century. When that day comes will we say, "Well, I guess God favors Islam?"
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As Christians, Jesus urges us to break out of our comfort zone. Christianity teaches we are called to resist our human nature. I'll tell you what, present the Gospel to absolute strangers and tell me how comfortable you feel.
That's a breeze compared to telling your family, friends, and colleagues in Alabama that you're atheist.
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Trotter, even though I don't agree with you, I respect your beliefs. Can you respect mine? Can you discuss Christianity without belittling or being hostile toward my beliefs?
I don't think I'm hostile. I can get a little aggravated discussing Christianity, though, because I am exposed to it so much because of where I live. If everyone - and I mean everyone - you encountered in your daily life was an atheist (if not an outspoken atheist) you might have a touch of frustration too.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 1:23 am to Globetrotter747
Trotter, you make a lot of excellent points, and I understand your observation concerning someone's religion being dependent on their culture. It makes sense, it's logical.
I don't know why God chose me, unworthy as I am, for His grace and redemption. But I'm glad He did.
I don't understand the peace I feel, when I see troubles down the road. Or even why I possess this Faith.
It doesn't make sense to the world. It's not logical.
But I believe it with all that I am. As surely as the sun will rise in the morning....I believe it. I know it.
Have a Happy New Year, I mean it. All the best to you.
I don't know why God chose me, unworthy as I am, for His grace and redemption. But I'm glad He did.
I don't understand the peace I feel, when I see troubles down the road. Or even why I possess this Faith.
It doesn't make sense to the world. It's not logical.
But I believe it with all that I am. As surely as the sun will rise in the morning....I believe it. I know it.
Have a Happy New Year, I mean it. All the best to you.
Posted on 1/6/18 at 4:28 am to Perfect Circle
Posted on 1/6/18 at 6:50 am to S J Jones
Sig name is the title of my favorite song from my favorite band. I had no idea there was a band named PC until about 2 months ago, when I saw it on the Music Board.
I listened to a number of their songs, including Judith. I gotta tell you, the lyrics made me uneasy. Then, I read the story behind Judith and I thought, OK, that makes sense. Terrible that people professing to be Christians would intimate Maynard's mother suffered because of her sins. That made me angry. Those kind of people are the reason so many, including me, dislike religion.
I listened to a number of their songs, including Judith. I gotta tell you, the lyrics made me uneasy. Then, I read the story behind Judith and I thought, OK, that makes sense. Terrible that people professing to be Christians would intimate Maynard's mother suffered because of her sins. That made me angry. Those kind of people are the reason so many, including me, dislike religion.
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