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re: France to accept 30,000 Sryian refugees over the next two years...
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:27 am to DownSouthJukin
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:27 am to DownSouthJukin
Fantastic rebuttal.
1
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:38 am to pvilleguru
Fantastic edit.
The point being is that you have an everyone wins, and someone else pays philosophy. That's a millennial's philosophy.
Your family, friends and neighbors aren't important to you?
The point being is that you have an everyone wins, and someone else pays philosophy. That's a millennial's philosophy.
quote:
There's nothing important around me that they could hit.
Your family, friends and neighbors aren't important to you?
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:10 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:41 am to DownSouthJukin
honestly, it's an interesting debate to have. my wife and i have been pretty heated about this the last couple of days.
we are very blessed to have a large house where we could probably host 2 syrian families for a time. we'd do it in a heartbeat and have for some people in different situations. not refugees, but people between homes, jobs, etc.
my wife is angry with the governors that are refusing to take them in their states, especially since most of them are "christians" and there's some pretty clear text on how we're to treat orphans, widows, and refugees/immigrants in the scripture.
I take the position of, if it's my house, yes, we'd do it. but if i'm a governor, they're not coming into my state. she doesn't get that i could have that opinion, but if i'm governor Christian, or not, if one person gets robbed, raped, or killed as a result of a refugee i let into my state, it's 100% on me. If there's a single instance of that, it's on Obama.
Which tears me up because in my personal life, i'm willing to be hurt or taken advantage on a personal level in the name of grace and mercy, but as a governor or president, i can't do that for my people.
Difficult conversations lie ahead, but Obama's not going to win it calling names and accusing republicans of being afraid of "3 YOs and Widows" and the republicans aren't going to win it without better dialogue than "they can't come in because they're muslim."
we are very blessed to have a large house where we could probably host 2 syrian families for a time. we'd do it in a heartbeat and have for some people in different situations. not refugees, but people between homes, jobs, etc.
my wife is angry with the governors that are refusing to take them in their states, especially since most of them are "christians" and there's some pretty clear text on how we're to treat orphans, widows, and refugees/immigrants in the scripture.
I take the position of, if it's my house, yes, we'd do it. but if i'm a governor, they're not coming into my state. she doesn't get that i could have that opinion, but if i'm governor Christian, or not, if one person gets robbed, raped, or killed as a result of a refugee i let into my state, it's 100% on me. If there's a single instance of that, it's on Obama.
Which tears me up because in my personal life, i'm willing to be hurt or taken advantage on a personal level in the name of grace and mercy, but as a governor or president, i can't do that for my people.
Difficult conversations lie ahead, but Obama's not going to win it calling names and accusing republicans of being afraid of "3 YOs and Widows" and the republicans aren't going to win it without better dialogue than "they can't come in because they're muslim."
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:41 am to DownSouthJukin
I don't have any friends that live near me and I only know one neighbor, she happens to be my realtor. If I die, then I really don't care who else goes at the same time.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:43 am to pvilleguru
quote:
If I die, then I really don't care who else goes at the same time.
well that's not a millenial position to take at all.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:46 am to 3nOut
quote:
well that's not a millenial position to take at all.
I don't know what positions millennials take. I don't pay attention to that stuff.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:47 am to pvilleguru
quote:
I don't know what positions millennials take. I don't pay attention to that stuff.
a lot to do with only caring about yourself.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 10:52 am to 3nOut
I think its a great idea to reject the needs of many and the ideals this country was founded on because we are scared of the few. (no matter what you say about what Islam teaches, every intelligence agency in the world will agree that the radicals are the minority).
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 10:53 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:04 am to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
needs of many
What needs? Are we the world welfare sponsor now?
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the ideals this country was founded on
Where does it say in the Constitution that we must admit thousands of refugees from across the world and pay to house, feed and clothe them?
The country was also founded on slavery. I guess we ought to keep that around, too.
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scared of the few
France: a country of 66 million was just brought to its knees by 8-9 terrorists who killed 129 people.
USA: a country of 350 million was terrorized by 19 terrorists who killed 2,977 on 9/11.
The "few," as you put it, are pretty good at killing the many.
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:05 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:09 am to 3nOut
quote:
Which tears me up because in my personal life, i'm willing to be hurt or taken advantage on a personal level in the name of grace and mercy, but as a governor or president, i can't do that for my people.
I agree with this. I will give someone the last dollar in my billfold, and have, on many occasions. I will not, however, dump an unknown factor of persons on unwitting US citizens and just tell them to shut up and quit worrying. It is a dereliction of our government's first duty (protect the citizens) to do so.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:15 am to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
I think its a great idea to reject the needs of many and the ideals this country was founded on because we are scared of the few.
i like the point in the constitution where it says we should take people's money at the threat of knifepoint to help the few.
i'm all about charity. i'm not all about government enforced charity.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:19 am to DownSouthJukin
Not nearly as good as the West is at killing them and supplying them with weapons and creating political instability in their own countries. There's a real simple solution. Stop playing World Police so that we aren't obliged to play World Welfare State. Until that happens, we have an obligation to grant sanctuary to those trying escape from the crazy our meddling has, in part, unleashed.
For all of our haranguing and chest thumping, we are capitulating to the will of terrorists. We first "sacrificed" our privacy and some pretty fundamental civil rights in the name of homeland security, then we needed to up our military spending to the tune of twice that of the 10 biggest military spenders below us combined, which has played a significant role in weakening our financial rating, now we are closing down borders and sacrificing another fundamental part of the American identity - Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, indeed. All of this is exactly what the terrorists are using in their propaganda to recruit more poor, young, ignorant people to their ranks - that the West is exactly as they say it is; weak, false, and scared.
For all of our haranguing and chest thumping, we are capitulating to the will of terrorists. We first "sacrificed" our privacy and some pretty fundamental civil rights in the name of homeland security, then we needed to up our military spending to the tune of twice that of the 10 biggest military spenders below us combined, which has played a significant role in weakening our financial rating, now we are closing down borders and sacrificing another fundamental part of the American identity - Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, indeed. All of this is exactly what the terrorists are using in their propaganda to recruit more poor, young, ignorant people to their ranks - that the West is exactly as they say it is; weak, false, and scared.
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:22 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:23 am to DownSouthJukin
I think the Constitution only states that the Federal decisions supersede the states - you can be certain there is definitely debate going on with this issue right now. But would you say our country was founded on the ideal of Liberty? The quote on the Statue of Liberty is pretty clear.
Also you just managed to compare slavery to helping refugees from a foreign conflict. I really don't feel the need to make an argument but some changes are good and some are bad.
Yes, a country of 66 million people had 100 killed in attack which to be honest, is not as bad as it could have been. And on 9/11 i think it is clear we were not prepared. I am not saying don't be prepared, don't take precautions, but I personally do not agree with closing our doors to refugees out of fear.
In addition, the most important question across the spectrum of religious, national security and international policy debate that should be considered is how do we find a way to end the conflict. Wouldn't accepting these people into our country and showing them the true compassionate ideals we claim to hold be more effective in turning the worldwide view away from Us vs. Them or this religion vs. that religion towards Peaceful Citizens of the World vs. Radical Terrorists?
Also you just managed to compare slavery to helping refugees from a foreign conflict. I really don't feel the need to make an argument but some changes are good and some are bad.
Yes, a country of 66 million people had 100 killed in attack which to be honest, is not as bad as it could have been. And on 9/11 i think it is clear we were not prepared. I am not saying don't be prepared, don't take precautions, but I personally do not agree with closing our doors to refugees out of fear.
In addition, the most important question across the spectrum of religious, national security and international policy debate that should be considered is how do we find a way to end the conflict. Wouldn't accepting these people into our country and showing them the true compassionate ideals we claim to hold be more effective in turning the worldwide view away from Us vs. Them or this religion vs. that religion towards Peaceful Citizens of the World vs. Radical Terrorists?
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:29 am to Sneaky__Sally
I just saw this on the OT - last thing I am going to say as it really is just a difference of opinion. But this quote I think summarizes what I would like to see this country do.
The main take away for me is - not the lack of hating but "You would like me to be scared, for me to look at my fellow citizens with a suspicious eye, for me to sacrifice my liberty for my security"
quote:
Parisian Father Defeats ISIS After Wife Dies in Bataclan Attack(Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:06 am)
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Video here.
English transcript of his Facebook post:
quote:
On Friday evening you stole the life of an exceptional person, the love of my life, the mother of my son, but you will not have my hatred.
I do not know who you are, and I don't want to know. You are dead souls.
If the God for whom you kill so blindly made us in his image, each bullet in my wife's body would have been a wound in his heart.
Therefore, I will not give you the satisfaction of hating you. You want it, but to respond to hatred with anger would be to give in to the same ignorance that made you what you are.
You would like me to be scared, for me to look at my fellow citizens with a suspicious eye, for me to sacrifice my liberty for my security. You have lost. Same player, same game.
I saw her this morning. At last, after nights and days of waiting. She was as beautiful as when she left on Friday evening, as beautiful as when I fell head over heels in love with her more than 12 years ago.
Of course I am devastated with grief, I grant you this small victory, but it will be a short term grief.
I know she will be with us every day and we will find each other in the heaven for free souls to which you will never have access.
Us two, my son and I, we will be stronger than every army in the world. I cannot waste any more time on you as I must go back to [my son] who has just woken from his afternoon nap.
He is only just 17 months old, he is going to eat his snack just like every other day, then we are going to play like every other day and all his life this little boy will be happy and free.
Because you will never have his hatred either.
Antoine Leiris
The main take away for me is - not the lack of hating but "You would like me to be scared, for me to look at my fellow citizens with a suspicious eye, for me to sacrifice my liberty for my security"
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:37 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:33 am to JacketFan77
quote:
Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
I agree with some of what you say re: world police. But guess why we were forced (on some occasions) to do this? Ever hear of the Cold War? While we had to protect the West from the USSR, Europe got to spend money turning their countries into welfare states instead of preparing to defend themselves. It was just part of being the big guy on the block that came with some consequences: you had to be responsible for leading the charge to crush every bully. Things are now changing in this regard.
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Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
Again-where is this printed in the Constitution? It's not.
It's a line from a poem that got printed on a plaque and placed on the Statute of Liberty. When do lines from poems form the basis of our nation's immigration policy?
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:49 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:38 am to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
I think the Constitution only states that the Federal decisions supersede the states
Is that all that it states? Wow. I've been terribly misinformed.
The Constitution says a lot about where powers are delegated. You should read it. But it never says that we have to take war refugees from the Middle East.
quote:
The quote on the Statue of Liberty is pretty clear.
It's not law, it's from a poem. Thank you. Next?
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Wouldn't accepting these people into our country and showing them the true compassionate ideals we claim to hold be more effective in turning the worldwide view away from Us vs. Them or this religion vs. that religion towards Peaceful Citizens of the World vs. Radical Terrorists?
Holy shite. You just solved all of the world's problems.
No-that wouldn't do a damn thing. We've been doing it for years, and guess what-they're still blowing themselves up and still itching to get over here and kill the frick out of us. They don't give a damn.
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 11:43 am
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:44 am to MoreLawdawg
frick Muslim foreign nationals of any stripe. Stay the frick out. Go blame your brethren who like to blow stuff up.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:48 am to Pavoloco83
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Go blame your brethren who like to blow stuff up.
I think they are blaming them. That's why they are trying to get out.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:49 am to DownSouthJukin
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When do lines from poems form the basis of our nation's immigration policy?
When they become better than our current immigration policy.
Posted on 11/19/15 at 11:54 am to DownSouthJukin
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I think the Constitution only states that the Federal decisions supersede the states
Is that all that it states? Wow. I've been terribly misinformed.
In this capacity, sorry I didn't mean to give a summary of the entire constitution. I am not a constitutional scholar, but based on recent articles discussing this subject, it seems to me that the federal government supersedes state governments regarding immigration policy. Again, and as I said before, you can bet there is a lot of debate regarding this issue going on.
regarding the statue of liberty - my original post was regarding the "ideals" of this country. I think the only poem placed on the Statue of Liberty would probably be at least a relevant indicator of how the people of that time period felt. The constitution doesn't say "we must take on refugees" nor does it say "we cannot take on refugees if there is the potential for lost american lives (to my knowledge at least". The country will make a decision - i have said how i feel about the debate. (and I am a conservative leaning person fwiw at least in economic and most social issues)
quote:
still itching to get over here and kill the frick out of us.
I was more referring to the people we let in - as in show them what this country is truly about - you are right, i don't think you can change the idea of an entrenched radical.
This post was edited on 11/19/15 at 12:00 pm
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