Started By
Message
re: Common Core Math
Posted on 5/16/14 at 10:57 am to CheeseburgerEddie
Posted on 5/16/14 at 10:57 am to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
Or we can stick to the same old learn you multiplication tables which in the end don't help us with anything at all.
Except drill and practice actually gets some kids to be able to do math. Not everyone wants or needs to learn the theory behind multiplication tables but they damn sure better be able to multiply 7x8. This love of learning shite is old hat. Teach the kids some facts. Some will want and need more. Give them more. But if 50% of your kids can't perform math at grade level, it doesn't matter if they love learning or understand the theory.
2
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:04 am to the808bass
All it is explaining is why 4*5=20 instead of just that 4*5=20. Which can be very helpful to some who view math as some foreign language.
This is the mindset that I totally disagree with. They can use a calculator or their phone to multiply if they need to in real life. Math is about problem solving in the most basic sense of the term. And if you focus on that instead of learning a bunch of facts, it might actually be beneficial to some students in the long run. Those that want and need to learn will always have that desire and be able to find places to learn. This is more about trying to give the others something useful instead of wasting their time for however many years.
quote:
Not everyone wants or needs to learn the theory behind multiplication tables but they damn sure better be able to multiply 7x8. This love of learning shite is old hat. Teach the kids some facts.
This is the mindset that I totally disagree with. They can use a calculator or their phone to multiply if they need to in real life. Math is about problem solving in the most basic sense of the term. And if you focus on that instead of learning a bunch of facts, it might actually be beneficial to some students in the long run. Those that want and need to learn will always have that desire and be able to find places to learn. This is more about trying to give the others something useful instead of wasting their time for however many years.
This post was edited on 5/16/14 at 11:08 am
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:05 am to the808bass
quote:
Except drill and practice actually gets some kids to be able to do math.
That's great for them. Having the times tables drilled in their heads is of little use when you get to algebra, geometry, and beyond. Sure you need to know it but knowing the properties of addition and multiplication are certainly very useful when factoring. Those little "tricks" turn complicated mechanical processes into easy solutions.
I've seen enough math to know the value of a lot of the processes I see CC questions asking for. It's not a perfect system, but the way math is traditionally taught leads any students into frustration and a lifelong hatred of one of the more elegant and beautiful of all subjects. Practice and drill has its place to see patterns, but so does how you break down 9 into 3+3+3.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:14 am to Duke
quote:
Having the times tables drilled in their heads is of little use when you get to algebra, geometry, and beyond.
And if you never learn 4*5=20, you won't take algebra or geometry, let alone beyond and it's a good thing that the cash registers now show how much change to refund after the customer purchases their burger and fries.
Do we stop teaching math at the elementary level because it's not algebra or geometry? You can't get to the rhetoric of math if you don't grasp the grammar of math.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:15 am to Duke
quote:
but the way math is traditionally taught leads any students into frustration and a lifelong hatred of one of the more elegant and beautiful of all subjects.
No, it doesn't. Kids who hated drill and practice math will hate CC math.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:25 am to the808bass
quote:
the808bass
We're having a disconnect here that I don't think is totally necessary.
quote:
And if you never learn 4*5=20, you won't take algebra or geometry,
No one is saying it's not very useful to know that fact offhand. Beats having to punch it into a calculator. If you know how to find that answer, even if you don't know it you can still come to the right answer. Just knowing the fact is great and all, but not nearly as useful as the skill to come about finding that answer on your own.
You don't need to know 4*5=20 to survive higher end math if you know the properties of how multiplication works, but if you take the time to know how it works you probably picked up that fact along the way.
quote:
You can't get to the rhetoric of math if you don't grasp the grammar of math.
I liken it more to these facts being the words of language and these concepts are the grammar. The rhetoric would be using the math in an applied fashion to model a real world situation. Yes you need to know some words, but if that's the only goal, you have students with a huge vocabulary and no grammar when they get to the rhetoric stage.
This post was edited on 5/16/14 at 11:28 am
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:32 am to the808bass
quote:
Do we stop teaching math at the elementary level because it's not algebra or geometry? You can't get to the rhetoric of math if you don't grasp the grammar of math.
Teaching methods is teaching math, just in a different way. Elementary math or addition, multiplication, etc. is still being taught.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:35 am to Duke
Duke you know what is scary.
As you will find out when you begin to look into your higher level courses, what used to be the grammar turns into the words. And then it shifts again.
As you will find out when you begin to look into your higher level courses, what used to be the grammar turns into the words. And then it shifts again.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:40 am to Duke
quote:
I liken it more to these facts being the words of language and these concepts are the grammar. The rhetoric would be using the math in an applied fashion to model a real world situation. Yes you need to know some words, but if that's the only goal, you have students with a huge vocabulary and no grammar when they get to the rhetoric stage.
I was using grammar as in the Trivium of grammar, logic and rhetoric from classical education. Grammar is simple facts (elementary). Logic is thinking things through (middle school). And rhetoric is the expression of ideas (high school). That's how they're defined therein anyway. Sorry for the confusion.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:42 am to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
As you will find out when you begin to look into your higher level courses, what used to be the grammar turns into the words. And then it shifts again.
Certainly. The example I think of is Calculus. Integrals and derivatives become your multiplication/division and those just become the words of the function. I'm sure it would keep going that direction if I hit the 4000 (LSU is stupid and does class level by 1000s) level math courses.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:44 am to the808bass
So to tie it into your definitions, you have students who know the grammar with no logic that you throw into needing to do rhetoric.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:45 am to Duke
ya, like I said in our other math discussion, it keeps happening.
The series you learned in Calc II become a step in the solution and a "tool" you can use to simplify certain Partial Differential Equations. I forget exactly what it is called, but one of the methods of solutions you learned in Diff Eq I, becomes but a simple step of a solution once you start talking about Fourier Series and BVP. Like algebra simplification in calculus.
The series you learned in Calc II become a step in the solution and a "tool" you can use to simplify certain Partial Differential Equations. I forget exactly what it is called, but one of the methods of solutions you learned in Diff Eq I, becomes but a simple step of a solution once you start talking about Fourier Series and BVP. Like algebra simplification in calculus.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:50 am to CheeseburgerEddie
Right, it keeps building and building...
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:52 am to Duke
Yeah. We're just talking past each other at this point. It's cool.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:53 am to the808bass
It happens. 
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:54 am to Duke
yep, to a point, at least in my experience. And then your various advanced "tools" that you have developed are all used at some level.
The last class a took wasn't really about anything except how to approximate equations which contained integrals which were impossible to solve analytically. All of the tools were available to try and get from A to B and we learned a few different methods of approximation. I really really hope that "methods of approximation" course doesn't become a small footnote because it was the most abstract and difficult thing I've ever done.
The last class a took wasn't really about anything except how to approximate equations which contained integrals which were impossible to solve analytically. All of the tools were available to try and get from A to B and we learned a few different methods of approximation. I really really hope that "methods of approximation" course doesn't become a small footnote because it was the most abstract and difficult thing I've ever done.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 11:58 am to CheeseburgerEddie
It's still a chore to integrate the solvable ones for me. Doable...but a chore. I can start to imagine what that class was like and I smile, because I remember not being a math major means not taking that course.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 12:06 pm to Duke
quote:
I remember not being a math major means not taking that course.
it was an elective... I took it with 3 or 4 other undergrads and like 10 grad students. A terrible decision in terms of my stress level that year. But I enjoyed learning what I could from the course immensely.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 12:27 pm to GatorReb
quote:
My wife teaches 3rd grade and they HAVE to teach the kids multiple ways to do math problems and all instead of teaching just 1 way. The reasoning is "because different kids learn differently"
The kids who will suffer are the kids from families where the parents aren't involved. I'll continue to work with my kids at home using the KISS philosophy. The kids who don't have that extra assistance outside the classroom are going to be left eating a big bag of dicks.
Posted on 5/16/14 at 12:43 pm to blacknblu
I feel like I get what they are trying to do here. It reminds me of my first finance professor teaching is how to calculate present value or a payment by hand before just letting us plug it into our calculators.
That being said, I think I would of hated learning basic math like this.
That being said, I think I would of hated learning basic math like this.
Page 3 of 4
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News