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re: Protests blowing up in Downtown Birmingham
Posted on 6/3/20 at 12:42 pm to The Spleen
Posted on 6/3/20 at 12:42 pm to The Spleen
quote:
Since 2015, there have been 30 blacks per million blacks in this country killed by police. There have been 22 Hispanics per million Hispanics in this country killed by police. THere have been 12 white people per million white people killed by police. That's over double, per million. So no, it's not a myth and you should look in the mirror when you accuse people of lying.
The problem with using raw figures is they don't adjust for population.
The problem with using simple per capita figures is it excludes some very important variables. Notably, it assumes that the propensity to commit offenses (primarily violent offenses, as those most often correspond to police killings) are equal among each population group. We know that not to be case, for whatever reason. It also doesn't take into account the race of the officer. So your analysis and conclusion is similarly flawed. A fairly in-depth Harvard study found no racial bias in officer-involved shootings (though not non-lethal use of force). LINK
On the other hand, data shows that arrests for things like drug offenses does not correlate with actual illegal drug use by race. These arrests disproportionately result in jail time for black males over their white counterparts.
It's a nuanced issue, but nobody really cares to dig in since they are already entrenched in their own views.
This post was edited on 6/3/20 at 12:52 pm
2
Posted on 6/3/20 at 12:52 pm to TidalSurge1
quote:
Since criminal acts lead to confrontations with police, what are the proportions of crimes committed per million for the white, hispanic and black segments of the U.S. population?
Why not treat that assignment like it was all about recruiting and statistically get back with us?
Posted on 6/3/20 at 12:56 pm to TideCPA
quote:
It's a nuanced issue, but nobody really cares to dig in since they are already entrenched in their own views.
Absolutely, and I have no problem with your assessment and critique of mine. Those statistics rarely tell the whole story.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:02 pm to The Spleen
Nice selective reporting of numbers. Your numbers speak nothing of unjust killings they are simply raw numbers that conveniently leave out the percentage of violent crimes committed by various races. For instance, blacks make up 12-13 % of the population yet commit 52% of the murders. The same goes for violent crimes. Black men are three times more likely to commit violent crimes than white men. Are police More likely to show up at a violent crime scene prepared for lethal force or at a shoplifting scene?
As way of demonstrating the malicious fallacy that you and whoever your source is are perpetrating we will consider the disparity between the number of men shot by police as opposed to women. Last three years data, 2017 - 940 men Vs 45 women. 2018 - 942 men vs 53 women. 2019 - 961 men vs 43 women. Women actually hold a slight advantage in the population. Are police forces systemically sexist? Should the police lay off the men? Or is it more likely that men are committing violent crimes and acting as a threat to police on the scene?
As way of demonstrating the malicious fallacy that you and whoever your source is are perpetrating we will consider the disparity between the number of men shot by police as opposed to women. Last three years data, 2017 - 940 men Vs 45 women. 2018 - 942 men vs 53 women. 2019 - 961 men vs 43 women. Women actually hold a slight advantage in the population. Are police forces systemically sexist? Should the police lay off the men? Or is it more likely that men are committing violent crimes and acting as a threat to police on the scene?
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:05 pm to LovetheLord
quote:
Nice selective reporting of numbers.
Uh, you did the same exact thing.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:29 pm to The Spleen
quote:
Uh, you did the same exact thing.
No. LovetheLord didn't do the exact same thing that you did. I asked a question of you and Bamameister that when answered would expose the huge flaw in what you guys were trying to do. Neither of you answered the question. He did.
This post was edited on 6/3/20 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:49 pm to TidalSurge1
When a police officer does something terribly wrong, like the murder of Mr Floyd, it's tragically obvious that policeman had issues that made him unsuitable for being a policeman. The same applies to his fellow policemen who watched him do it and didn't make any effort to stop him.
The real problem is that the law enforcement human resource policies and systems must do a better job of preventing people who are not suitable for being a policeman from being one. That's what needs to be fixed. Similarly, any sherrif, police chief or police commissioner who fails to ensure that's being done is not suitable for his job.
The real problem is that the law enforcement human resource policies and systems must do a better job of preventing people who are not suitable for being a policeman from being one. That's what needs to be fixed. Similarly, any sherrif, police chief or police commissioner who fails to ensure that's being done is not suitable for his job.
This post was edited on 6/3/20 at 3:23 pm
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:50 pm to The Spleen
quote:
Uh, you did the same exact thing.
Yeah, the "I know you are but what am I" argument is for 5th graders.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:50 pm to TidalSurge1
quote:
No. LovetheLord didn't do the exact same thing that you did. I
Sure he did. He said the perception that blacks are killed by police more than whites was a myth, and supported that by citing the raw numbers of killings. But when you break those numbers down on a proportionate basis, it disproves his premise. So yes, he selectively used numbers that supported his position.
And I did the same thing. But as TideCPA pointed out, the reality is nuanced and the numbers leave out a great deal of context.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 1:55 pm to The Spleen
Ok, gotcha. I misundertood and thought you were referring to LovetheLord's response about violent crime rates being the exact same thing. My mistake. I'm sorry.
This post was edited on 6/3/20 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:08 pm to The Spleen
Yeah, this whole matter revolves around unjust killings by police. The whole myth is that police are "systemically racist" against blacks. You pulled up talking points from BLM's website that give raw numbers without telling the whole story, which is a lie. The fact of the matter is that by percentage, black men are committing three times as many violent crimes. 12-13% of the population commits 52% of murders. I showed you this, and you pretended as though it doesn't matter. I also showed you that the numbers severely skew towards males being shot by police as compared to females. Is it "open season on males." Is a "systemic injustice" being done?
You can cavil over raw percentages if you wish, but you have now gone from ignorance to willful ignorance.
You can cavil over raw percentages if you wish, but you have now gone from ignorance to willful ignorance.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:12 pm to LovetheLord
For one where did you get this statistics? Please provide a non-partisan source.
Secondly, for a guy who has the name "LovetheLord" your post basically resemble hatred and intolerance for your fellow man and I'm not just talking about black people and this topic.
Secondly, for a guy who has the name "LovetheLord" your post basically resemble hatred and intolerance for your fellow man and I'm not just talking about black people and this topic.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:17 pm to YStar
quote:
For one where did you get this statistics?
The Wall Street Journal did an article yesterday with these very stats. Unfortunately it's a pay article so I'll post an image with the relevant data:
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:18 pm to LovetheLord
quote:
You pulled up talking points from BLM's website that give raw numbers without telling the whole story, which is a lie.
No, they came from a Washington Post story, and I admitted they lack a great deal of context. I used them to counter your argument that the perception that cops kill more POC was a myth. If you break the raw numbers down into a per capita basis, it shows that perception is not a myth at all.
The whole argument is stupid anyway, because almost all of the speakers at these protests have admonished the unjust killing of ALL people, not just black people. And the protesters out there supporting them have been very racially diverse as well. So quibbling over which race is mistreated more is futile when we can all just admit our law enforcement is in desperate need of wholesale changes in the way they police.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:20 pm to YStar
Minnesota AG upgrades the charge against Chauvin to 2nd degree murder and also charges the 3 bystander cops.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:20 pm to TidalSurge1
quote:
No. LovetheLord didn't do the exact same thing that you did. I asked a question of you and Bamameister that when answered would expose the huge flaw in what you guys were trying to do. Neither of you answered the question. He did.
You seem to struggle mightily in addressing your points with bamameister my friend. I've spoken all morning on why I feel these social issues are out of control. How complexed they really are in our culture and the futility we've suffered trying to correct them. You've chosen to make "zero" comments to these points.
LTL wanted to make the same points that a poster tried to make earlier today with me about the 6 yr. old kid accidentally shot by police. And then LTL being LTL misapplied his favorite scriptures and he was off. The only reason such an article about statistics would interest me in the first place is that it was trying to see both sides. For any article a rarity these days. So I quoted it at least for its attempt at being honest about a highly charged social issue.
If you want to make a point about anything I care about here, have at it. Just do your own homework. Otherwise, your rhetorical question isn't enlightening me.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:24 pm to RollTide1987
Again, I said a non-partisan source. I don't want WSJ, CNN, etc..
Each of these have paymasters and agendas drive their narratives.
Each of these have paymasters and agendas drive their narratives.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:34 pm to YStar
quote:
Again, I said a non-partisan source.
There's no such thing in the year 2020. Do your own research instead of expecting other people to do it for you. The fact that you haven't done your own research tells me either a) you don't care b) you don't want your preconceived biases to be proven incorrect or c) you're just lazy.
But I won't be a total dick. I'll point you in the direction of a "non-partisan source." Go to the FBI's official website and start digging. You'll find all the crime stats you could ever want on that page.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 2:47 pm to bamameister
I did not bring up the matter of the 6 y/o kid. But I did point out that if the matters were that a black man and child had been shot, the reaction would have been vastly different. You know that is true just as well as I do.
As far as the Scripture, I can promise you 100% that I have not misapplied them. But, hey, I am pretty certain that facts or evidence won't be dissuading you from your biases.
As far as the Scripture, I can promise you 100% that I have not misapplied them. But, hey, I am pretty certain that facts or evidence won't be dissuading you from your biases.
Posted on 6/3/20 at 3:01 pm to LovetheLord
Do you people realize that 87% of statistics are made up and fighting over something someone purposely skewed to fit their narrative is silly.
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