BlueTrue
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| Registered on: | 1/1/2023 |
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re: The 4th down overturn for Bowers. Right call?
Posted by BlueTrue on 1/3/23 at 6:51 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
I should have been more clear in my wording. Bowers does not lose contact with the ground from the last moment he is established inbounds to the moment he is established out-of-bounds. Crossing the sideline does not make a player out-of-bounds. The ball hanging over the sideline also does not count as out of bounds. Only touching something out-of-bounds, other than another player or an official, makes a player count as out-of-bounds.
The reason for the airborne out-of-bounds ball spot rule is fairness.
When a player in possession of the ball jumps forward (airborne) and crosses the sideline, a the defense cannot impede that player's forward progress, lest they draw a penalty for a late action. Thus the ball is placed at the spot it crosses the sideline.
A player with the ball who is not airborne and still inbounds can have his forward progress impeded, so he still gets forward progress until he is down or out-of-bounds. If an Ohio State player had tackled Bowers while the hand was planted, it would have been a legal tackle. It's the same reason why a player can be hit when making one of those toe-tapping catches with his hands out of bounds when he makes the catch. The ball may be a foot over the sideline, but the player is still legally inbounds and may be tackled.
The reason for the airborne out-of-bounds ball spot rule is fairness.
When a player in possession of the ball jumps forward (airborne) and crosses the sideline, a the defense cannot impede that player's forward progress, lest they draw a penalty for a late action. Thus the ball is placed at the spot it crosses the sideline.
A player with the ball who is not airborne and still inbounds can have his forward progress impeded, so he still gets forward progress until he is down or out-of-bounds. If an Ohio State player had tackled Bowers while the hand was planted, it would have been a legal tackle. It's the same reason why a player can be hit when making one of those toe-tapping catches with his hands out of bounds when he makes the catch. The ball may be a foot over the sideline, but the player is still legally inbounds and may be tackled.
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quote:
When he dove. He only put his hand down for an aid. Edit: Watched it again, it wasn't a dive or a leap, but it was: "etc., in other than normal running action" He left the ground with both feet.. not sure what you would call it.. But he definately went airborne.
To get to those examples, such as dove, leapt, etc., in the NCAA definition of airborne, you must first qualify everything before the "because..."
If you can't cross that qualifying threshold, those examples are irrelevant.
An airborne player is a player not in contact with the ground...
Bowers does not lose contact with the ground at any point, so he immediately does not qualify as airborne. If he'd lost contact with the ground, then you could go into the subset of qualifiers. Yes, there are reasons when a player is still not airborne even when the player has lost contact with the ground (which is why the (definition says other than normal running action).
However, under the NCAA rules, the player can never be considered airborne while in contact with the ground.
Down on what?
quote:
So I keep going back to the biggest factor is was he airborne. When I watched the play in real time, I forgot how airborne he actually was. His hand was only down for a short period of time to try to keep him airborne longer, as he successfully did. I know that their is no chance of us agreeing here. I just want to hear it debated by professionals, which I'm sure we won't.. They will do it behind closed doors and do clarifications next year, but never admit a mistake that bid an consequential. Like I said before both sides (airborne and not airborne) have a valid argument.
In this situation, arguing over what is and is not airborne does not come down to one person quoting the Oxford dictionary while the other quotes Miriam-Webster because those two might have minor differences worthy of debate.
Except we can't use those definitions in this situation because the NCAA defines airborne is in the NCAA rulebook, and that is the only definition that matters.
NCAA Football Rules for 2022 on the NCAA website
Page FR-42: An airborne player is a player not in contact with the ground because they have leapt, jumped, dove, launched, etc., in other than normal running action.
According to that definition, at what point was Bowers airborne?
quote:
That's not the rule. The rule is where the point of the ball crosses the line.
Only for airborne players. That's why it is listed as an exception in the rule (and your own link). Bowers wasn't airborne. For non-airborne players, the ball is spotted when the player touches down out-of-bounds.
quote:
That's not correct. Here is the full interpretation of the rule with examples and the exception that seems to apply in this case. Forward progress is all about where the ball crosses the line, not the player. It's a link due to the formatting not transferring correctly.
Forward progress for ball carrier going out of bounds.
When a player in possession of the ball goes out of bounds, the ball is spotted at the point it crosses the sideline only when the player is airborne or in stride. It's in your link.
The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress. Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.
So think about it. Why does an exception exist? Could it be because not every play who goes out of bounds is airborne? What happens when those non-airborne players go out of bounds? Fortunately, the NCAA defined most of the important words in their rules. Here's the definition for airborne.
An airborne player is a player not in contact with the ground because they have leapt, jumped, dove, launched, etc., in other than normal running action.
Note my bolding.
Bowers was in contact with the ground throughout his crossing of the sideline, thus he was never airborne. So where does the ball get spotted? The answer is in your link and the first sentence of the paragraph with the airborne exception.
The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress.
Now the last question to ask is, well, when was Bowers considered out-of-bounds? Here is that rule:
A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is out of bounds, or that is on or outside a boundary line, except another player or game official.
Now put it all together. Bowers was never airborne because his hand was never not in contact with the ground. He was not ruled out of bounds until his left knee touched the ground out-of-bounds, and again because he was not airborne, the ball gets spotted at its point of forward progress when his knee touched the ground out of bounds. Replay clearly showed the ball past the line to gain before his knee touched the ground.
No one has really given the correct answer here, so I figured I'd chime in.
First off, there are two parts to this question. When is a player in possession of the ball considered out of bounds and where is the ball spotted when said player is ruled out of bounds?
The first answer is simple. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is out of bounds, or that is on or outside a boundary line, except another player or game official.
As for the second part, this is the answer to the question. The ball is spotted at its point of forward progress at the point when the player is ruled out of bounds. However, there is ONE EXCEPTION. If the player is airborne while going out of bounds, even if that airborneness is the stride from running, the ball is spotted at the point it crosses the sideline.
Hence you can't long jump out of bounds and gain yards.
The Bowers play was reversed because he was still in contact with the ground inbounds (not airborne and not touching out of bounds) when the ball is still moving forward. Only when his knees hits out of bounds does his forward progress stop.
Also another question brought up here is about a touchdown and the ball being outside the pylon. If the player is inside the pylon but the ball breaks the plane outside the pylon, it IS a touchdown. The endzone plane extends to infinity if the player is still inbounds. It can even get crazier than that.
Imagine a player carrying the ball in his right hand toward a pylon on the right side. He jumps over the sideline and breaks the endzone plane outside the field of play. Before he hits the ground, he kicks out his foot and touches the pylon. That's a touchdown. (And to be exact on this scenario, the ball must have crossed the plane before the player touches the pylon. If the player touches the pylon with anything other than the ball before the ball is beyond the plane, it is out of bounds).
First off, there are two parts to this question. When is a player in possession of the ball considered out of bounds and where is the ball spotted when said player is ruled out of bounds?
The first answer is simple. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is out of bounds, or that is on or outside a boundary line, except another player or game official.
As for the second part, this is the answer to the question. The ball is spotted at its point of forward progress at the point when the player is ruled out of bounds. However, there is ONE EXCEPTION. If the player is airborne while going out of bounds, even if that airborneness is the stride from running, the ball is spotted at the point it crosses the sideline.
Hence you can't long jump out of bounds and gain yards.
The Bowers play was reversed because he was still in contact with the ground inbounds (not airborne and not touching out of bounds) when the ball is still moving forward. Only when his knees hits out of bounds does his forward progress stop.
Also another question brought up here is about a touchdown and the ball being outside the pylon. If the player is inside the pylon but the ball breaks the plane outside the pylon, it IS a touchdown. The endzone plane extends to infinity if the player is still inbounds. It can even get crazier than that.
Imagine a player carrying the ball in his right hand toward a pylon on the right side. He jumps over the sideline and breaks the endzone plane outside the field of play. Before he hits the ground, he kicks out his foot and touches the pylon. That's a touchdown. (And to be exact on this scenario, the ball must have crossed the plane before the player touches the pylon. If the player touches the pylon with anything other than the ball before the ball is beyond the plane, it is out of bounds).
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