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re: GA HB 757 - Should Deal sign it?
Posted on 3/26/16 at 5:16 pm to DawgsLife
Posted on 3/26/16 at 5:16 pm to DawgsLife
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Not really when you consider the audience the words were spoken to and/or the context. Taken singularly it does seem to be extreme in places, but when placed in context much less so.
Why can't context be applied to the gay parts of the bible as well? Seems like Christians are picking and choosing which things to apply it to.
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Posted on 3/26/16 at 5:31 pm to baconwaffle
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I know there is alot of antipathy toward all "non-Southerners" here, whatever the frick that means
Classic.
Godless commies migrate to Georgia and try to turn it into the shitholes they escaped from.....yet have no clue why that is offensive to natives they look down upon. I hate your fricking guts.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 5:39 pm to djsdawg
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Why can't context be applied to the gay parts of the bible as well? Seems like Christians are picking and choosing which things to apply it to.
Of course they are. They judge the people that sin differently than themselves and then rationalize their own sins to seem less severe
Posted on 3/26/16 at 5:50 pm to K9
There's nothing wrong with judging people. You do it daily, hourly, probably by the minute.
What if the sodomite perverts were unable to use government force to demand their acceptance?....and what if the Christians who are rightfully repulsed by the sodomite lifestyle couldn't use government force to not accept them?? Wouldn't that solve the problem immediately???
I guess that would require a few non-commie brain cells though
What if the sodomite perverts were unable to use government force to demand their acceptance?....and what if the Christians who are rightfully repulsed by the sodomite lifestyle couldn't use government force to not accept them?? Wouldn't that solve the problem immediately???
I guess that would require a few non-commie brain cells though
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:00 pm to DawgsLife
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with him) think of all the women that are hurt, humiliated and crushed because their husband wants to protect his secret. They guy (or it could be a woman) wants to hide their secret to avoid hurt and humiliation and their solution is to hurt and humiliate the person they supposedly love?
It's sad to see. Sometimes Desperate folks will go to great lengths to try to be what society considers normal, sometimes at the expense of others.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:15 pm to djsdawg
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Why can't context be applied to the gay parts of the bible as well? Seems like Christians are picking and choosing which things to apply it to.
What context? The verses dealing with homosexual acts stand alone. It is addressing a singular issue and speaks plainly. Maybe we don't understand what I mean when I say context. There are times when a verse is speaking to a specific person or persons relating to an singular issue that is going on....and they address that one issue. Then there are verses that do not speak to a particular thing that is happening, but to a behavior. Such as adultery. It speaks plainly to adultery not because it is going on at a specific church or to a specific person.
Then, as in the case of telling the women to stay quiet, it is speaking to an incident going on in a particular church at a particular time that was causing dissension in the church. Context helps you to determine which is the case.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:17 pm to K9
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Of course they are. They judge the people that sin differently than themselves and then rationalize their own sins to seem less severe
Actually this is true in many cases. And therein lies the problem. Homosexual acts are no better or worse than lying, stealing, adultery or any other sin. yet, many Christians, because they don't struggle with homosexual tendencies will judge that more severely.
So, yes. I agree with you.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:21 pm to djsdawg
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It's sad to see. Sometimes Desperate folks will go to great lengths to try to be what society considers normal, sometimes at the expense of others.
I do agree that this happens at times. I also think it is the opposite. People are doing things with little to no regard as to how it hurts other people. That goes for gays, straights, Christian and non-Christian.
People like to point to Christians that do this, but rarely see the exact same behavior in themselves. For instance...look at how many people will point at, criticize and judge Christians for judging other people. There are far more people on this board that will show open disdain and judge Christians for.....judging? Ironic, isn't it?
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:24 pm to Jefferson Dawg
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There's nothing wrong with judging people. You do it daily, hourly, probably by the minute.
Actually, this is true. We judge everybody, whether we want to admit it or not. We judge the pedophile, the uneducated, the poor, the rich, the prostitute and the list goes on and on....when you see a person holding up a cardboard sign along the side of the road what do you think? Do you stop and see if you can help? or do you drive past thinking they probably are an alcoholic or drug addict that is just trying to get money for alcohol or drugs? Be honest.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:29 pm to fibonaccisquared
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The thing that keeps getting lost in all this is: None of these verses indicate that people should treat them any differently. Simply that they will be judged *by God* accordingly. "Judge not lest ye be judged"... Isn't that a thing?
Once more, this is out of context. It's often quoted to excuse any sin or lifestyle, but that was NOT what Jesus meant. This should help shed some light on the issue. Note that the author makes a point to highlight the phenomenon of believers criticizing others' sins hypocritically. When you bring things like this up, you assume that Christians don't see the problem....but, if we're being honest, most of us do.
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There's likely not one person who can look at the "sin of homosexuality" and cast a stone without raining down stones upon their own glass houses. Isn't that the entire point of the bible? That we're all sinners and that Jesus supposedly died for those sins so that we may be forgiven?
You're absolutely right. And, again, this is what Jesus was warning against. He was cautioning us that we would be judged in the same way that we exercised judgement against others and thus, we should examine our own lives (and the sins we commit) just as stringently, if not more so. There's also the issue that most gay individuals do not see their activity as sinful and the first step toward forgiveness of sin is TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for that sin. Jesus died for our sins. You commit murder, you repent and ask forgiveness and it is there for you (because Jesus already paid that price). The thing is, you still have to ACCEPT His gift. If you're a "practicing" homosexual, the problem here is that the sin is actually your lifestyle and most of them do not see what they're doing as sin.
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I don't see a similar outrage about fornicators or adulterers for example, so forgive me if I call bullshite on the current subject as anything more than selective bigotry.
Then you haven't sat in a church much. Surely you don't think we spend every Sunday morning discussing the woes of homosexuality? Believe me, we cover the gamut and it is nearly 100% to do with making changes in ourselves and addressing our own sins and the need to get back in line with Christ's teachings than going out and pointing fingers at others. In fact, I can't tell you the last time homosexuality was even a topic of discussion. I attend a Southern Baptist Church and our music minister actually has a 20-something child who is transgender and attends every Sunday. And you know what? No one in our congregation has EVER had a negative thing to say about them. We love and accept him and his struggle no differently than anyone else.
I say all this to make the point that if all that you said above is how you really feel about and view Christians, then you don't know us as well as you think you do. Sadly, it isn't your fault. The public is being conditioned to see believers as hateful bigots every day. Most people have formed their opinion of the church through liberal media and its characterization of what "we" think as opposed to actually attending one regularly and digging deeper into theology by asking questions of an actual pastor. There are certainly those that are less tolerant, but anyone who is truly striving to be Christ-like is embracing ALL people in the way I described above.
And again, as far as private businesses go and how they serve the general public while being faithful to Christian values...Chick-fil-A is doing it right.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:33 pm to DawgsLife
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as in the case of telling the women to stay quiet, it is speaking to an incident going on in a particular church at a particular time that was causing dissension in the church.
Old Testament context as in very different societal norms of the time. You make it seem like almost everything in it can be rationalized by "context" but the gay stuff.
The Corinthian one seems to put gay acts on the same level as drinking and cheating among other things, so that's not a very meaningful one for anyone to use today unless they want to judge the drinkers and cheaters the same way, and we know that they don't generally speaking. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such outrage over gays marrying while the others are judgement free to drink everyday and marry 3 times like trump.
The Romans one seems to be talking about folks being turned gay as some sort of punishment from God, which again doesn't seem all that meaningful in application to today's world.
This post was edited on 3/26/16 at 8:32 pm
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:40 pm to DawgsLife
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Message
GA HB 757 - Should Deal sign it? by DawgsLife
quote:
It's sad to see. Sometimes Desperate folks will go to great lengths to try to be what society considers normal, sometimes at the expense of others.
I do agree that this happens at times. I also think it is the opposite. People are doing things with little to no regard as to how it hurts other people. That goes for gays, straights, Christian and non-Christian.
People like to point to Christians that do this, but rarely see the exact same behavior in themselves. For instance...look at how many people will point at, criticize and judge Christians for judging other people. There are far more people on this board that will show open disdain and judge Christians for.....judging? Ironic, isn't it?
Well, folks doing that don't believe in the word of the bible, so it's not hypocritical. Besides, Intolerance to intolerance is the most acceptable kind of intolerance.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:43 pm to dawgfan24348
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Exactly, all this religious freedom bill is, is just a bunch of bigots using religion to get their way. If they really wanted to deny sinners then they could never let anyone in. Also anyone who's ever cheated, had sex before marriage, or got divorced should fall under their same rule.
This appears to be the point I am making about the Corinthians verse. This type of bill is selecting one sin and ignoring the others, but the verse doesn't say it like that.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:45 pm to djsdawg
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Can you post the link to this context about women?
You'll probably regret asking for this, but....
I know it's long, but if you really want enlightenment on this, you kinda have to do the reading.
This post was edited on 3/26/16 at 6:47 pm
Posted on 3/26/16 at 6:46 pm to DawgsLife
quote:
quote:
It's sad to see. Sometimes Desperate folks will go to great lengths to try to be what society considers normal, sometimes at the expense of others.
I do agree that this happens at times. I also think it is the opposite. People are doing things with little to no regard as to how it hurts other people. it?
I bet some of these closeted gays know they could really hurt others, but why? They do it because they are deeply hurt themselves, which makes them desperate to be "normal".
Posted on 3/26/16 at 7:11 pm to S1C EM
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Can you post the link to this context about women?
You'll probably regret asking for this, but....
I know it's long, but if you really want enlightenment on this, you kinda have to do the reading.
Thx. That was a lot of words. Overall, Seems like a group of hypothetical assumptions to spin the sexist words. If we can't take those words for their literal meaning, then thats an argument that can be made for just about anything in the bible. Just need a skillet spinster to do it.
Posted on 3/26/16 at 9:27 pm to djsdawg
So ultimately, you're going to come to the conclusion you WANT to come to. That's fairly obvious.
The "literal" meaning was that the women in the church at Corinth needed to get their crap in order and quit being disruptive during services. Chapter 11 makes it clear that it was not a blanket command. This is but one article. There are MANY more and all are in agreement as to what was going on at this time.
You're picking and choosing, just like the folks you seem so perturbed by.
The "literal" meaning was that the women in the church at Corinth needed to get their crap in order and quit being disruptive during services. Chapter 11 makes it clear that it was not a blanket command. This is but one article. There are MANY more and all are in agreement as to what was going on at this time.
You're picking and choosing, just like the folks you seem so perturbed by.
This post was edited on 3/26/16 at 9:32 pm
Posted on 3/26/16 at 11:56 pm to DawgsLife
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It's not lost. Check back into my posts. I have said that if (In the case of the baker) he would not refuse a cake to a liar or cheater, then why would he refuse a cake to the homosexual? However, I also would bristle at the government telling me who I must provide services for. For instance, why would I want to make a cake for a KKK rally, or force a Muslim baker to do a cartoon Mohammed on a cake knwoing they would find it offensive. It's simply a matter of respect for others beliefs. Why must we bend people with the law to do what we want them to do?
That's the thing. You keep pretending that your voice is the voice of the Christian Right Mass... it's not'. If more were sounding like you, we likely wouldn't be at the crossroads that we find ourselves... you seem to be willing to accept that there is a good bit of hypocrisy wrapped up in this shitstorm of an attempt at legal precedent.
Unfortunately, you are not the majority. It's actually a boatload of people who seem to think that they can do no wrong and that homosexuality is the only sin worth persecuting.
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Why must we bend people with the law to do what we want them to do?
There is literally no difference here than refusing service to blacks, latinos, or any other group. Outside of that it's picking and choosing what is right and what is wrong. All of which falls outside the purview of a fricking baker. If you limit it to the clergy, you will find no argument here. Expanding it past the purview of the religious cleric is where you have a problem. Religion stops at religious acts. Period. Beyond that is individuals claiming rights that they do not possess.
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So what it says is get your life straight then worry about someone else. It's another reason why I don't condemn others for their sin. That is between them and God. However, it never says NOT to judge. Simply that you will be judged in the same way you judge others. Jesus never shied away from calling sin a sin.
Here's the problem with that... who determines what is significantly sinful enough to judge? The bible doesn't lay out a hierarchy of what sins are "ok" and what sins are "shite out of luck"... that's a man made hierarchy which is ridiculous. Even *if* you accept the bible as an autonomous work that should be given credence over all others.
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However, this thread is about a specific thing.
Exactly. It's about HB 757... I think you may have misunderstood my "context"... It's about the bill before Gov. Deal right now... I could give 2 shits beyond the legal precedent that is about to be set one way or another.
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And herein is the key. We (Christians) tend to judge more harshly sins we have no problem with
Isn't that by it's very nature anti-Christian? (Assuming I am following the "no problem" comment that seems anti-thetical here.)
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I have no problem murdering
Either you're a phsycopath or this is not what you meant to say...
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This is where Christians get the "Holier than thou" reputation.
So is the law non-denominational or not? To me, it seems vastly Christian and ill advised even within the context of the Christian framework but maybe I'm missing something. At no point have I seen an argument that fully defends the point of view that the law is at all protecting those that deserve to be protected...
Posted on 3/27/16 at 12:23 am to S1C EM
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but, if we're being honest, most of us do
That's the funny part. Most of you/them don't...
Even in the article you linked:
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Yes, there is a point when we must confront the sin in another Christian’s life. Otherwise, we’re failing to obey the process Jesus and Paul explained in Matthew 18:15-17; Galatians 6:1; and 1 Corinthians 5:3-5.
However, that process should only occur after we’ve gone through a more basic examination with our own lives.
Everyone isn't a fricking Christian. There are a lot of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists (myself), and others. And there is not (much to many's dismay) a nationalized religion. One isn't any better than another.
I was raised Christian, but unfortunately/fortunately due to much of the hypocrisy that I continue to see today across the faith, I was led down a different path. My personal belief is that if one is to fulfill a meaningful life, it means following the "golden rule" and not imposing one's personal beliefs upon another that isn't willing to listen. I have a young daughter and I fully believe that she should be able to make up her own mind and am exposing her to as many different beliefs and services as I can...
I have no qualms with the basic tenets of Christianity. I have issues with the actual practice thereof and how people decide to twist those messages to fit their personal beliefs.
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You commit murder, you repent and ask forgiveness and it is there for you
In and of itself, this is one of the most ridiculous beliefs I'm expected to believe in... One who is in love with another man deserves no right to forgiveness for being in a monogamous relationship with another of the same sex, but one who asks for forgiveness for willfully murdering another (or many others) is fully granted said forgiveness? How are these two things equivalent?
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Then you haven't sat in a church much. Surely you don't think we spend every Sunday morning discussing the woes of homosexuality?
I sit through service occasionally and will do so again this weekend because I believe my daughter deserves the right to make up her own mind as she grows up... it's not that I sit here blindly. It's what is being brought to the forefront. The law isn't about adultery, etc... it's singling out specific acts which *one* religion has determined as sinful.
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I attend a Southern Baptist Church and our music minister actually has a 20-something child who is transgender and attends every Sunday. And you know what? No one in our congregation has EVER had a negative thing to say about them. We love and accept him and his struggle no differently than anyone else.
This is a great story... but it's counter to everything this bill stands for and every point I've refuted throughout this thread. The problem with bills like this is not that there aren't people who stand up for the rights of those who don't fit the norm, but rather that the bill allows others to take rights from those that don't fit the norm and allocate them where they so choose.
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hen you don't know us as well as you think you do. Sadly, it isn't your fault. The public is being conditioned to see believers as hateful bigots every day. Most people have formed their opinion of the church through liberal media and its characterization of what "we" think as opposed to actually attending one regularly and digging deeper into theology by asking questions of an actual pastor. There are certainly those that are less tolerant, but anyone who is truly striving to be Christ-like is embracing ALL people in the way I described above.
I never claimed to know all Christians exceptionally well. This law isn't about "all Christians". It's about a small subset who believe they speak for most. It is bigotry at its core... to think otherwise is simply to not understand the context of the law. Again, if it was limited to Pastors and religious representatives, then fine. It accomplishes a fine goal... but that's not what it is and that's not its goal. The law is absolutely counter to everything you just said, and if you understand how these laws have been applied elsewhere, you'd understand that. It is the total anti-theses of tolerance and anyone who believes it to be otherwise is failing to connect the dots between what is stated and what is implied.
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Chick-fil-A is doing it right.
I actually don't disagree. You as a business can have and maintain an opinion, but it doesn't stop them from serving a paying customer.
Posted on 3/27/16 at 4:36 am to fibonaccisquared
So here's the deal. I think you're smart enough to figure things out on your own. I do believe you have allowed people who call themselves "Christian" to separate you from God because you (like many) are having issues reconciling what people SAY with what they actually DO. As I said before, people are hypocrites. They are sinful by nature and that feeds this whole idea. But I assure you, there are far more people like myself than you realize. I applaud your effort to keep things open for your daughter and I do hope that one day, perhaps you will reconsider. The thing is, as you know, we do not believe in multiple paths to God. Jesus was rather specific on how one gets to the Father. We accept without issue that there are other faiths. We do NOT accept that they are all a means to the same end.
On the subject of "degrees of sin", there simply is no such thing. Sin, of any kind, has no place in His presence. The basis behind the murder versus homosexuality thing above is simple: One is willing to turn away from an ACT of sin; the other is embracing a LIFESTYLE of it. If the murderer makes a lifestyle out of murdering (Charles Manson...even though he coerced others into doing his dirty work), then he's in the same boat. This shouldn't be that hard of a concept. If you are living against God's commands (and especially do not acknowledge that you are even sinning at all), this is the issue. There's nothing that says a homosexual can't be saved and can't receive the same grace as the murderer. They absolutely can. And being gay is not in and of itself a sin. It's putting those desires into practice that is the issue. Many of us have desires that if we acted on would put us in the same place. The choice here is do we want to seek God or do we want to feed our sinful nature? Too often, humans choose the latter...Christians included.
At any rate, I'm done with message board discussion of theology. I think we can only accomplish so much when so many minds are already made up. This is something that would be best pursued in-person and even still, I doubt much would change. As for the bill, I admittedly don't know a ton about it, but I've been clear on where I stand. I don't think the bakers, for example, were right. But I do understand why they thought they were and I also don't think they should have been sued and had everything that they worked for for so long snuffed out because an overly sensitive couple decided they couldn't contact the other baker that was recommended to them by the first. Even in turning the couple away, the bakers were overly kind to them, yet that wasn't enough. Our litigious society is just unreal.
At this point, any reliously-based business providing a service to the public should approach it the way CFA does. They do that and I think we're all better for it and we all get the chance to see the fruits of the spirit in action. And that's the way it should be.
On the subject of "degrees of sin", there simply is no such thing. Sin, of any kind, has no place in His presence. The basis behind the murder versus homosexuality thing above is simple: One is willing to turn away from an ACT of sin; the other is embracing a LIFESTYLE of it. If the murderer makes a lifestyle out of murdering (Charles Manson...even though he coerced others into doing his dirty work), then he's in the same boat. This shouldn't be that hard of a concept. If you are living against God's commands (and especially do not acknowledge that you are even sinning at all), this is the issue. There's nothing that says a homosexual can't be saved and can't receive the same grace as the murderer. They absolutely can. And being gay is not in and of itself a sin. It's putting those desires into practice that is the issue. Many of us have desires that if we acted on would put us in the same place. The choice here is do we want to seek God or do we want to feed our sinful nature? Too often, humans choose the latter...Christians included.
At any rate, I'm done with message board discussion of theology. I think we can only accomplish so much when so many minds are already made up. This is something that would be best pursued in-person and even still, I doubt much would change. As for the bill, I admittedly don't know a ton about it, but I've been clear on where I stand. I don't think the bakers, for example, were right. But I do understand why they thought they were and I also don't think they should have been sued and had everything that they worked for for so long snuffed out because an overly sensitive couple decided they couldn't contact the other baker that was recommended to them by the first. Even in turning the couple away, the bakers were overly kind to them, yet that wasn't enough. Our litigious society is just unreal.
At this point, any reliously-based business providing a service to the public should approach it the way CFA does. They do that and I think we're all better for it and we all get the chance to see the fruits of the spirit in action. And that's the way it should be.
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