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Are Mark Fox and Mark Richt all that different?
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:27 am
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:27 am
First of all I want to stress I'm not posting this simply because we lost to SC last night. They are a pretty darn good team and we played pretty well, just couldn't finish. This is more of a broad overview.
Richt came out of the gates on fire then was average/pretty good the other 10 years outside of a couple blips of being "REALLY good". Fox has kind of done the opposite, starting out slow and getting better, but I think the main theme here is we know what we've got. This is year 8 so there aren't really any surprises with Fox. Let's look at his records here:
-14-17 (5-11)
-21-12 (9-7), Lost in 1st Rd of NCAAT
-15-17 (5-11)
-15-17 (9-9)
-20-14 (12-6), Lost in 2nd Rd of NIT
-21-12 (11-7), Lost in 1st Rd of NCAAT
-20-14 (10-8), Lost in 2nd Rd of NIT
-Currently 9-5 (1-1), probably looking like NIT
Now, there are DEFINITELY so things that you can say to defend fox that I can see have merit. We aren't a basketball school. Our AD is trash and our boosters and fans as a whole DGAS about basketball. We have subpar facilities. Etc. But this seems eerily similar to me to Richt supporters (of which I was one for a LOOOOOONG time) in looking for every possible excuse. Let's look at the other factors. We are an hour away from one of the biggest basketball hotbeds in America. The HS and AAU talent here is unreal. If bruce pearl can get 5* talent and top 10 national classes to friggin Auburn, there's no reason we can't get them here. We have money, that's definitely not a problem. "We aren't a basketball school" is a joke since plenty of football factories have good/great programs as well. Ultimatley this obviously boils down to what our administration thinks which we have no control over, but my questions as fans is what more do you need to see?
8 years is plenty enough time for a basketball coach to show what he can do. I appreciate Felton for inheriting a dumpster fire and getting us turned around (ala Donnan). I appreciate Fox for taking that baseline and elevating us to the next level (ala Richt). But it just seems like we've maxed out and hit our season and we aren't going to do much else. We need to find someone who can take us yet another level.
This was supposed to be the year. Maten is terrific and DO really came on strong so the 4/5 should be locked down. JJ is JJ, to go along with a hopefully improved Turtle and two 4* guard signees, so both guard spots should be locked down. We get Parker back full strength plus a JUCO wing which should have solidified the 3. This was the year we were supposed to maybe actually win a tournament game and make some noise, and it's very likely we aren't even going to make the tournament. AGain, it's year 8...for the Fox supporters, what do you think he is ultimatley going to accomplish? "20 win seasons" are great on paper for UGA basetkabll (although with the adidtion of some of these in-season tournaments and being good enough to win a game or 2 in the SECT that doesnt' mean quite what it used to) but it pales in comparison to winning come tourney time. The writing was on the wall with Richt that he just wasn't going to cut it, and I think there's a good parallel there with Fox.
It takes me A WHILE to really get down on UGA coaches but at this point I've just seen enough. We know what Fox is and what he's capable of and it just doesnt' look like he's the guy to take us to the next level.
Richt came out of the gates on fire then was average/pretty good the other 10 years outside of a couple blips of being "REALLY good". Fox has kind of done the opposite, starting out slow and getting better, but I think the main theme here is we know what we've got. This is year 8 so there aren't really any surprises with Fox. Let's look at his records here:
-14-17 (5-11)
-21-12 (9-7), Lost in 1st Rd of NCAAT
-15-17 (5-11)
-15-17 (9-9)
-20-14 (12-6), Lost in 2nd Rd of NIT
-21-12 (11-7), Lost in 1st Rd of NCAAT
-20-14 (10-8), Lost in 2nd Rd of NIT
-Currently 9-5 (1-1), probably looking like NIT
Now, there are DEFINITELY so things that you can say to defend fox that I can see have merit. We aren't a basketball school. Our AD is trash and our boosters and fans as a whole DGAS about basketball. We have subpar facilities. Etc. But this seems eerily similar to me to Richt supporters (of which I was one for a LOOOOOONG time) in looking for every possible excuse. Let's look at the other factors. We are an hour away from one of the biggest basketball hotbeds in America. The HS and AAU talent here is unreal. If bruce pearl can get 5* talent and top 10 national classes to friggin Auburn, there's no reason we can't get them here. We have money, that's definitely not a problem. "We aren't a basketball school" is a joke since plenty of football factories have good/great programs as well. Ultimatley this obviously boils down to what our administration thinks which we have no control over, but my questions as fans is what more do you need to see?
8 years is plenty enough time for a basketball coach to show what he can do. I appreciate Felton for inheriting a dumpster fire and getting us turned around (ala Donnan). I appreciate Fox for taking that baseline and elevating us to the next level (ala Richt). But it just seems like we've maxed out and hit our season and we aren't going to do much else. We need to find someone who can take us yet another level.
This was supposed to be the year. Maten is terrific and DO really came on strong so the 4/5 should be locked down. JJ is JJ, to go along with a hopefully improved Turtle and two 4* guard signees, so both guard spots should be locked down. We get Parker back full strength plus a JUCO wing which should have solidified the 3. This was the year we were supposed to maybe actually win a tournament game and make some noise, and it's very likely we aren't even going to make the tournament. AGain, it's year 8...for the Fox supporters, what do you think he is ultimatley going to accomplish? "20 win seasons" are great on paper for UGA basetkabll (although with the adidtion of some of these in-season tournaments and being good enough to win a game or 2 in the SECT that doesnt' mean quite what it used to) but it pales in comparison to winning come tourney time. The writing was on the wall with Richt that he just wasn't going to cut it, and I think there's a good parallel there with Fox.
It takes me A WHILE to really get down on UGA coaches but at this point I've just seen enough. We know what Fox is and what he's capable of and it just doesnt' look like he's the guy to take us to the next level.
This post was edited on 1/5/17 at 9:30 am
5
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:40 am to WG_Dawg
Mark Fox has the UGA team consistently performing above its average from a historical standpoint. We just need a few boosters to step up and finance some McDonalds players...
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:42 am to WG_Dawg
UGA is a basketball factory. There is no reason we shouldn't be winning 30 games each year. Fire Mark Fox!
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:45 am to Peter Buck
quote:
Mark Fox has the UGA team consistently performing above its average from a historical standpoint
True, and galen hall had UF football in the mid-80s doing the best they'd ever done. But just being better than your historical average (if your historical average isn't very good) isn't gonna get you where you want.
I appreciate what Fox has done but can you honestly see him taking us to a final 4? Or hell, winning 2 games in the NCAAT? He hasn't ever even won 1 of them here yet.
quote:
We just need a few boosters to step up and finance some McDonalds players...
That'd be lovely but it hasn't happened yet and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. Not sure if that's our adminitration's fault (although we're 'playing the game' in football so don't think that's it) or a personal decision by Fox.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:47 am to Barstools
quote:
There is no reason we shouldn't be winning 30 games each year.
Don't believe I said anything remotely close to that did I?
quote:
UGA is a basketball factory
When you think of Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio State, Miami, FSU...you probably think football right? All of those programs have either had elite CBB teams the last few decades or have at least had some runs of VERY GOOD success. There is no reason at all we can't do the same, other than not having the right coach.
This post was edited on 1/5/17 at 9:48 am
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:48 am to WG_Dawg
Being so close to the hotbed of Atlanta hoops, we "should" be getting more talent. And basketball is unique in that 1 player can make a major impact. We just haven't landed that game changer yet IMO
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:52 am to WG_Dawg
UGA has only won 20 games in 3 consecutive years two times in our history. The other time was 1996-1998.
We are doing as well as we have ever done as a program.
We are doing as well as we have ever done as a program.
This post was edited on 1/5/17 at 10:16 am
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:56 am to DawgCountry
A comparison from some other "football first" schools..
Miami- 2 sweet 16s in the last 5 years. Made the NCAAT/NIT in 9 of the last 12 years.
Oklahoma- Made the NCAAT 12 times since 2000.
Texas- Made the NCAAT 17 out of the last 18 years.
UF and OSU have both made the national title game as of late and are perennial NCAAT teams.
USC- made the NCAAT 5 times the last 10 seasons
FSU- made the NCAAT 4 times the last 7 yeras, two of which were a 5 seed or higher
Clemson- made the NCAAT 4 times the last 8 years, all but one were a 7 seed or higher
The "we aren't a basektball school" doesn't hold water.
Miami- 2 sweet 16s in the last 5 years. Made the NCAAT/NIT in 9 of the last 12 years.
Oklahoma- Made the NCAAT 12 times since 2000.
Texas- Made the NCAAT 17 out of the last 18 years.
UF and OSU have both made the national title game as of late and are perennial NCAAT teams.
USC- made the NCAAT 5 times the last 10 seasons
FSU- made the NCAAT 4 times the last 7 yeras, two of which were a 5 seed or higher
Clemson- made the NCAAT 4 times the last 8 years, all but one were a 7 seed or higher
The "we aren't a basektball school" doesn't hold water.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 9:59 am to Barstools
quote:
UGA has only won 20 games in 3 consecutive years two times in our history.
and to show for it we have: 2nd round NIT loss, 1st round exit in the NCAAT, 2nd round NIT loss
There's plenty of other coaches out there than can reach a ceiling of winning 1 NIT game (or making the tourney but not winning any games there)
quote:
We are doing as good as we have ever done as a program.
And Fox deserves a frick ton of credit for that. But the "20 win" argument is basically the exact same as Richt's "he averages 10 wins a year" argument. Yeah it's nice to point out but you don't play for "x win seasons" you play for postseason wins. How can we expect to elevate our basketball program to the next level with a guy who has alreayd reached his ceiling?
Posted on 1/5/17 at 10:15 am to WG_Dawg
The difference between the 10 win and the 20 win argument is that our football program has actually won national championships and consistently had elite talent under Mark Richt. That isn't the case with the basketball program. Save 'Nique we have never had elite talent. You cannot compare our Football program to our Basketball program. That is silly.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 10:19 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
How can we expect to elevate our basketball program to the next level with a guy who has alreayd reached his ceiling?
The question is, who do you think we're going to be able to hire that's going to do any better? About the only way that happens is a big name, which is doubtful, or someone who can recruit their arse off. I don't know who that can be. We've invested in the basketball program. We've got one of the best training facilities. We've invested millions into making Stegeman a better place inside and out, and are still in the process. I noticed how much better it looked last night watching the game.
I just don't know what the answer is. Recruiting is the main answer, but how do you get some of the state's best players to a program that doesn't have a tremendous amount of tradition or a history of winning big?
Posted on 1/5/17 at 10:21 am to Barstools
quote:
The difference between the 10 win and the 20 win argument is that our football program has actually won national championships
how is that relevant at all? Our last title was in 1980, that has nothing to do with whether we should have kept Richt or not. Just like us making the final 4 in 1983 has no bearing on keeping fox or not.
quote:
Save 'Nique we have never had elite talent.
Shouldn't a coaches job be to bring in elite talent?
quote:
You cannot compare our Football program to our Basketball program. That is silly.
I'm not comparing the success of the 2, that'd be foolish. What I'm comparing is that under Richt we got stagnant and got complacent with winnign X amount of games although we had no hardware of note in the last 10 years before moving on. Fox is winnign X amount of games but not winnign the ones that really matter.
Another difference is that Richt actually DID show (albeit very early in his tenure) that he COULD win SEC titles and BCS bowls for us...he just hadn't done it in a long time. Fox hasn't shown that he can win anything other than a 1st round NIT game.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 10:41 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
how is that relevant at all? Our last title was in 1980, that has nothing to do with whether we should have kept Richt or not. Just like us making the final 4 in 1983 has no bearing on keeping fox or not.
It's relevant because UGA fans are delusional and think that we should win the NC in football every year just because we won a championship in 1980. Also, we are a top 15 football program of all time. Which is why recruits want to come to UGA to play football and is why we have elite talent.
Recruits simply do not want to come to Athens to play basketball. We have never been relevant nationally (save the 'Nique years as i previously stated), and we don't have a chance at winning a championship. That is why we don't have elite talent. It's not because Mark Fox is only winning 20 games a year and we are stagnant.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:00 am to Barstools
quote:
It's relevant because UGA fans are delusional and think that we should win the NC in football every year just because we won a championship in 1980
No not really, I don't know anyone who thinks that.
quote:
Also, we are a top 15 football program of all time. Which is why recruits want to come to UGA to play football and is why we have elite talent.
yes we are a top 15 program, so going 10 years with only 1 BCS bowl appearance isn't quite good enough. Which is why we moved on.
quote:
Recruits simply do not want to come to Athens to play basketball.
And that's Fox's problem. Harrick wasn't a dynamic recruiter but man oh man could he coach. The town of Athens doesnt' change depending on what sport you play, we're an attractive place to play basketball. Let me fill you in on Auburn's recent recruiting:
15 class- 3 3* and 2 3*, 15th nationally
16 class- 1 5*, 1 4*, 1 3*, 25th nationally
17 class- 1 5*, 2 4*, 8th nationally
Auburn has 3 consecutive classes in the top 25 including a top 10 class. You simply can't say "kids don't want to come to Ahtens for basketball" when elite kids are going to Auburn for basketball. You can say Pearl cheats, which he might idk, but the fact is pearl is a dynamic, engaging guy (kinda like kirby is for football) taht attracts kids there, for whatever reason fox doesn't have that. Also I know we jsut beat AU, but my point is in direct response to yours that kids don't want to come to Athens. They go to wichita, auburn, colubus, and a number of other places that are far inferior to Athens. There's a reason for that.
quote:
We have never been relevant nationally
Which has nothing to do with us not being able to win a tournament game.
quote:
we don't have a chance at winning a championship
Currently? You're right, we have zero chance. Wouldnt' it be better to have someone that would give us even a small chance?
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:00 am to Barstools
quote:
UGA fans are delusional and think that we should win the NC in football every year just because we won a championship in 1980.
Name two people who have said we should win a natty every year.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:06 am to WG_Dawg
The difference in the 2 is that in football, there are people out there capable of taking our talent to the next level who are dying to be the head coach. In basketball, we don't have the talent and that head coach doesn't exist. You can't get the talent without being good first. We are on like step 4 of a 10 step process to make the final four. And there is a decent chance we never get to step 10.
Mark fox has been an absolute godsend for uga basketball in bringing stability and success to one of the worst power 5 programs in the country. People are still entirely unaware that we have won 20 games three seasons in a row. Make that 5 years in a row, make it 10 years in a row, and we will have ourselves a stable program ready to take the next step. It doesn't happen overnight and it's not going to no matter how much you bitch about your unrealistic expectations.
Mark fox has been an absolute godsend for uga basketball in bringing stability and success to one of the worst power 5 programs in the country. People are still entirely unaware that we have won 20 games three seasons in a row. Make that 5 years in a row, make it 10 years in a row, and we will have ourselves a stable program ready to take the next step. It doesn't happen overnight and it's not going to no matter how much you bitch about your unrealistic expectations.
This post was edited on 1/5/17 at 11:08 am
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:07 am to FinleyStreet
We just don't seem to have the commitment from our AD or boosters to make us a basketball powerhouse. If we hire a hot up and comer, he will be gone as soon as he doesn't like Tubby did or he will fail. We are a slightly overweight, balding guy with an average job. Fox is as hot of a chick as we can expect to nail...
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:16 am to rockchlkjayhku11
quote:
The difference in the 2 is that in football, there are people out there capable of taking our talent to the next level who are dying to be the head coach. In basketball, we don't have the talent and that head coach doesn't exist.
This just isn't true, at least the first part. And if our AD would pony up the money there'd be PLENTY of people willing to come here. And I mean, we've seen even in the last ~20 years of what we're capable of...by multiple coaches! Tubby went 45-19 and got us to the sweet 16. Harrick had us ranked and went ot back to back NCAAT and fielded 2 of the best teams we've ever had in our history..shame that one of them didn't even get a chance to play (thanks Adams..). Harrick wasn't even a lights out recruiter, the man could simply coach. Y'all are acting like we're trying to bring a saban-like coach to a Vandy football program.
quote:
We are on like step 4 of a 10 step process to make the final four.
Adn we're going to be stuck on step 4 as long as fox as here.
quote:
Mark fox has been an absolute godsend for uga basketball in bringing stability and success to one of the worst power 5 programs in the country
I agree! And have repeatedly said I am thankful for what he's done. I want to be clear that I'm not bashing fox or saying he sucks, I just think he's taken us as far as he can.
quote:
People are still entirely unaware that we have won 20 games three seasons in a row. Make that 5 years in a row, make it 10 years in a row, and we will have ourselves a stable program ready to take the next step. It doesn't happen overnight
He's been here 8 years. This is basketball, where 5 people are on the floor and 1 elite player can make all the difference. This isn't football where it takes YEARS to turn a program around, you can turn a basketball progrma like ours (not in NCAA trouble, plenty of money, elite talent base, great school and campus, decent amount of talent already on the roster) in a very short time.
quote:
it's not going to no matter how much you bitch about your unrealistic expectations.
Please, show me where I've even said what my expectations are?
And let me ask you like I asked several times in the OP...what do you think Fox is capable of? This isn't a kirby situation with a first year guy that we no practically nothing about. Fox is a long-time head coach in his EIGHTH year here...we know exactly what fox is.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:21 am to Peter Buck
quote:
We just don't seem to have the commitment from our AD or boosters to make us a basketball powerhouse. If we hire a hot up and comer, he will be gone
then the AD should pony up and pay to keep him. This is a job, it's a business. If we have someone worthy of other people wanting him, we should pay him what it takes to keep him if we feel our BB program is worth it. I think we're worth it, whteher GM does I can't answer.
quote:
We are a slightly overweight, balding guy with an average job. Fox is as hot of a chick as we can expect to nail...
Nah, we're an overweight balding guy with a plum job that is rich. Sure we're not a Tom Brady that has the whole package (UK, UNC, Duke) but we've got a lot going for us and I'm sure there are hots out there that woudl put up with our phsyical issues since they get to be a sugar mama.
Posted on 1/5/17 at 11:22 am to WG_Dawg
In case it's been overlooked previously, here is my ultimate bottom line:
I love UGA basketball and want us to be the absolute very best we can possibly be. I don't believe that Fox is the absolute very best we can do.
I love UGA basketball and want us to be the absolute very best we can possibly be. I don't believe that Fox is the absolute very best we can do.
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