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re: Brian Kelly can’t say that he loves beating Georgia.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:09 am to Uga Alum
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:09 am to Uga Alum
The thing about Kelly is he's not a young guy who's coming into his own as a coach. He's had a long career as a head coach and he's shown you what he is.
And the reality of that is pretty easy to see. He's a good coach but not a championship level coach.
Now don't get me wrong, of the coaches that are not going to win a national title, he's among the best. But Notre Dame likely made the right call in replacing Kelly with Freeman.
Freeman is actually recruiting better so far at ND than Kelly did. Is he doing better on the field? No, but he's a new head coach who it is reasonable to hope will "figure things out", not a guy like Kelly who has a way he runs things but isn't expected to suddenly improve his coaching methods.
Freeman is bringing in more talent with a hope of the on field coaching side improving.
Kelly? Statistically he's recruiting about the same as Orgeron, perhaps a little below his level (O was actually a pretty good recruiter). He's not insane like coach O is, so he's likely going to get more out of it, and a lot of O's talent left so his teams are going to get more talented over the next few years. And he's recruiting better than he did at Notre Dame, because LSU is easier to recruit to. His teams will get better.
Enough better to win a national title? Based on Kelly's coaching in big games like playoffs, BCS bowls and championships... probably not. Kelly's teams haven't just lost these games, they've been demolished almost every time.
LSU will make the 12 team playoff regularly under Kelly. But they'll likely get smacked as soon as they run into a real championship level team in the playoff if not getting beat against a non-championship level team. That's what his long track record shows. This isn't like predicting that Kirby will never win a title after 4 or 5 seasons as a head coach. This is 31 seasons of evidence.
And the reality of that is pretty easy to see. He's a good coach but not a championship level coach.
Now don't get me wrong, of the coaches that are not going to win a national title, he's among the best. But Notre Dame likely made the right call in replacing Kelly with Freeman.
Freeman is actually recruiting better so far at ND than Kelly did. Is he doing better on the field? No, but he's a new head coach who it is reasonable to hope will "figure things out", not a guy like Kelly who has a way he runs things but isn't expected to suddenly improve his coaching methods.
Freeman is bringing in more talent with a hope of the on field coaching side improving.
Kelly? Statistically he's recruiting about the same as Orgeron, perhaps a little below his level (O was actually a pretty good recruiter). He's not insane like coach O is, so he's likely going to get more out of it, and a lot of O's talent left so his teams are going to get more talented over the next few years. And he's recruiting better than he did at Notre Dame, because LSU is easier to recruit to. His teams will get better.
Enough better to win a national title? Based on Kelly's coaching in big games like playoffs, BCS bowls and championships... probably not. Kelly's teams haven't just lost these games, they've been demolished almost every time.
LSU will make the 12 team playoff regularly under Kelly. But they'll likely get smacked as soon as they run into a real championship level team in the playoff if not getting beat against a non-championship level team. That's what his long track record shows. This isn't like predicting that Kirby will never win a title after 4 or 5 seasons as a head coach. This is 31 seasons of evidence.
This post was edited on 5/8/23 at 7:11 am
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Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:14 am to DawginSC
quote:
Freeman is actually recruiting better so far at ND than Kelly did.
I mean not really.
His 2022 class was supposed to be great but it kind of fell apart at the end.
quote:
Enough better to win a national title? Based on Kelly's coaching in big games like playoffs, BCS bowls and championships... probably not. Kelly's teams haven't just lost these games, they've been demolished almost every time.
LSU will make the 12 team playoff regularly under Kelly. But they'll likely get smacked as soon as they run into a real championship level team in the playoff if not getting beat against a non-championship level team. That's what his long track record shows. This isn't like predicting that Kirby will never win a title after 4 or 5 seasons as a head coach. This is 31 seasons of evidence.
The 31 year thing is kind of overblown, Kelly coached a really long time at poverty programs, Notre Dame was really his only chance to win something and no one has done anything there for 30 years.
This post was edited on 5/8/23 at 7:17 am
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:23 am to DrewDawg13
quote:
Literally every person outside of the bayou know ND is a better program than LSU. Man y'all are delusional
Historically? yes. Right now at this moment? No. I would argue that LSU has been a much better program than ND since around 1997 and maybe before that.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:26 am to DawgsLife
quote:
Historically? yes. Right now at this moment? No. I would argue that LSU has been a much better program than ND since around 1997 and maybe before that.
If anyone thinks Notre Dame has been the better program since 2000, then I would say they're the delusional ones.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:29 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
I mean not really.
His 2022 class was supposed to be great but it kind of fell apart at the end.
Wrong as always. Out of all the time Kelly was at ND, he only had one class better than Freeman's. That's pretty bad.
quote:
The 31 year thing is kind of overblown, Kelly coached a really long time at poverty programs, Notre Dame was really his only chance to win something and no one has done anything there for 30 years.
31 years is still 31 years. There is a reason he coached at some poverty programs, it's because he is not that good of a coach.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:29 am to DawgsLife
quote:
Historically? yes. Right now at this moment? No. I would argue that LSU has been a much better program than ND since around 1997 and maybe before that.
Why are we picking random numbers?? All time it's ND and it's not even close.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:30 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
If anyone thinks Notre Dame has been the better program since 2000, then I would say they're the delusional ones.
Oh yeah, LSU fans think that football started in 2000, shocking you picked that arbitrary number.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:36 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
I mean not really.
No, it's pretty clear.
Kelly's last 5 classes at ND (using 247 scoring)
2017: 251 points
2018: 268 points
2019: 272 points
2020: 251 points
2021: 270 points
Freeman's first 2.
2022: 275 points
2023: 272 points
I think saying it's a little better is accurate to this point. If he throws a 251 in this upcoming year then it's about the same.
"The 31 year thing is kind of overblown, Kelly coached a really long time at poverty programs, Notre Dame was really his only chance to win something and no one has done anything there for 30 years."
Of those 31 years, he was at Notre Dame for 11 after 19 years of "prep" for the ND job at (as you put it) poverty programs.
Brian Kelly is 61 years old. He's not going to be showing you any new tricks. He is what he is, a very good but not great head coach. Think Mark Richt, Frank Beamer, Bill Snyder or Kirk Ferentz... not Kirby Smart, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer or Steve Spurrier.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:36 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Notre Dame was really his only chance to win something and no one has done anything there for 30 years.
I agree that LSU (right now) is a much better program, and I do believe that Kelly is a good, solid coach. How good is yet to be seen.
However, in fairness of the "ND has not done anything the last 30 years therefore it isn't necessarily Kelly's fault."...Kelly was there for 11 of those years, and ND had some pretty bad coaching hires before Kelly. Kelly did seem to do a bit better than his predecessors and appeared to be hitting his stride at ND with his playoff appearances. I get that ND gets a ton of leeway with the media, but their records were usually pretty good under Kelly and they usually play a pretty good schedule.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:37 am to DrewDawg13
quote:
Wrong as always. Out of all the time Kelly was at ND, he only had one class better than Freeman's. That's pretty bad.
Better by what metric?
If we're looking at class rankings, this is 100% false.
quote:
Why are we picking random numbers?? All time it's ND and it's not even close.
We're talking present day, not the 70's.
Nebraska is historically a better program than Georgia but that doesn't seem to matter much these days.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:47 am to DawgsLife
quote:
However, in fairness of the "ND has not done anything the last 30 years therefore it isn't necessarily Kelly's fault."...Kelly was there for 11 of those years, and ND had some pretty bad coaching hires before Kelly.
No doubt.
My personal opinion is that Kelly's teams both tended to overachieve and were overrated by the media due to Notre Dame bias leading to some beatings at the hands of actual elite teams.
Everyone wants to "punish" Kelly for not winning the BCS National Championship or playoff games while ignoring the fact that those teams were a combined 41-1.
No one beat them except the literal Heisman winner but somehow Kelly is a choke artist because he didn't.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:50 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Better by what metric?
If we're looking at class rankings, this is 100% false.
Wrong again, look at 24/7 rankings. look at what DawginSC just posted. I know you are trying to defend Kelly, but it's just the truth.
quote:
We're talking present day, not the 70's.
Nebraska is historically a better program than Georgia but that doesn't seem to matter much these days.
Again why do we get to pick and choose what years matter? ND all time is a much more elite program than LSU.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:52 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:In the playoff era I definitely agree. But, there have been beatdowns in the playoff era almost every year. I guess what I mean by that, is either they were overrated or the depth of the field just wasn't very good, and that can be said about most years. That's what scares me about expanding the playoffs to 12 teams. I think there will continue to be epic beat downs every year.
My personal opinion is that Kelly's teams both tended to overachieve and were overrated by the media due to Notre Dame bias leading to some beatings at the hands of actual elite teams.
quote:That's just people trolling and trying to get a rise out of LSU fans. As I said. Kelly, to me, was a solid hire and is a good coach. How good is yet to be seen. If he doesn't get over the hump at LSU it will say a lot about how good he actually is. But, with the depleted roster he got it will probably take 2-3 more years to get a good feel for his coaching abilities.
No one beat them except the literal Heisman winner but somehow Kelly is a choke artist because he didn't.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:53 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Better by what metric?
If we're looking at class rankings, this is 100% false.
Freeman's worst class was scored as a 272.79 using 247's composite points.
Kelly's classes at ND:
2021 - 270.65
2020 - 251.28
2019 - 259.59
2018 - 268.86
2017 - 251.32
2016 - 249.43
2015 - 267.79
2014 - 260.44
2013 - 284.77 (the one year better)
2012 - 248.21
2011 - 271.38
2010 - 241.92
Of note - Kelly's 3rd highest class (2021) was with Freeman as DC (2021 as DC was his only year at ND prior to being hired as the HC). Part of the reason Freeman was hired at ND was what he was able to do on the recruiting trail in that position.
This post was edited on 5/8/23 at 7:59 am
Posted on 5/8/23 at 7:56 am to DrewDawg13
quote:
Wrong again, look at 24/7 rankings. look at what DawginSC just posted. I know you are trying to defend Kelly, but it's just the truth.
Kelly
2020 - #18
2021 - #9
2022 - #7
Freeman
2023 - #12
This post was edited on 5/8/23 at 7:57 am
Posted on 5/8/23 at 8:01 am to DrewDawg13
quote:
Why are we picking random numbers?? All time it's ND and it's not even close.
It's not random numbers. LSU fans are interested in what is happening with their program RIGHT NOW. Just like we are. We, as Georgia fans would prefer to talk about the last 5 or so years and forget the 40 or so years we struggled nationally.
I don't think LSU fans will argue that ND is a better program all time. But they don't care. They want to be good right now. I mean, 1997 (at least) was 25 years. That's a long time for LSU to be better than a Blue Blood.
I mean....I'm not sure if you are trolling or having an honest conversation. Either is ok.....I just like having an honest conversation on this board for a change. There are very few of those these days.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 8:02 am to DawginSC
quote:
Brian Kelly is 61 years old. He's not going to be showing you any new tricks. He is what he is, a very good but not great head coach. Think Mark Richt, Frank Beamer, Bill Snyder or Kirk Ferentz... not Kirby Smart, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer or Steve Spurrier.
Would you have said this about Bobby Bowden as well?
Posted on 5/8/23 at 8:03 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
SidewalkTiger
Wrong again, DawginSC and I both proved you wrong.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 8:04 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Kelly
2020 - #18
2021 - #9
2022 - #7
Freeman
2023 - #12
This is a commonly made mistake, looking at rankings rather than score. People often make claims that there wasn't much of a difference between Mark Richt and Kirby Smart in recruiting looking at the rankings. but when you look at the scores, you see the huge jump in talent Smart brought to UGA.
And the 2022 class wasn't Kelly's. It was closed by Freeman. Kelly left ND in the last week of November of 2021. Not only did Freeman hold onto most of the class, he added two 4-star players AFTER Kelly left.
His connection to the recruiting side of ND is a huge reason why he was hired.
Posted on 5/8/23 at 8:07 am to DawginSC
quote:
This is a commonly made mistake, looking at rankings rather than score.
That's why I said I was just going off of rankings.
quote:
And the 2022 class wasn't Kelly's. It was closed by Freeman. Kelly left ND in the last week of November of 2021. Not only did Freeman hold onto most of the class, he added two 4-star players AFTER Kelly left.
You can't just write Kelly off of the class when the majority of it committed while he was the head coach.
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