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re: Best Running Back in SEC History?
Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:21 pm to 3down10
Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:21 pm to 3down10
quote:
And while it may not have been your main formation, I am pretty sure I remember Georgia running some wishbone, and also some inverted wishbone for the extra blocking.
Auburn did, Georgia, as far as I know/remember never ran the wishbone.
Bo Jackson started off in the wishbone as their main offense (I don't remember them ever coming out of it) and so did Alabama, Texas, Oklahoma and some others.
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Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:23 pm to 3down10
quote:
Best Running Back in SEC History?
quote:
Everything’s relative. Offenses are more sophisticated now with better linemen. Defenses are bigger and faster, etc. I have no doubt that if Herschel came along today he’d be every bit as effective. Same with Bo, etc. Herschel was the best ever and led his team to a NC. He should have won two Heisman Trophies. There have been many great RB in the history of the SEC but, by every metric and according to the vast majority of experts, Herschel stands alone at the top. You all can keep bringing this subject up every year, but it won’t change anything. Herschel was the best ever.
Bo actually played the tough SEC teams. Walker played vs 1 ranked SEC team, which funny enough was 1982 Auburn.
Walker played 6 ranked teams total in his entire career, going .500 against them.
It's like when a G5 team like Cincy last year goes undefeated. Yeah, with that weak arse schedule there are probably 10 other teams who could have also gone undefeated on it.
UGA lost a total of 3 games in the 3 years that Herschel was there, including post-season. Those 3 were lost by a total of 18 pts to Pitt, Clemson ('81 NC), and Penn St. ('82 NC). To compare that run to Cincy is idiotic at best, but I'll consider the source.
So during Herschel's 3 year tenure, UGA played for 3 NC's.
Below is an article for you, but I'm guessing facts and stats don't matter much for someone like you. Here are a couple of points just in case:
Herschel Walker is the only player in history to finish in the top three in Heisman voting after each of his three college seasons.
Walker was also named the SEC Player of the Year and a consensus All-American all three years with the Bulldogs.
Bleacher Reports Best RBs in CFB History
Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:24 pm to DawgsLife
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Typically no. They were decoys for handoffs. There were some plays in which they would hand the ball off the a halfback and the fullback would lead into the hole, but more often than not the QB read the defense and could hand the ball off the the RB of his choosing.
I think you are downplaying the amount of blocking they do, especially on sweeps, but it's not really relevant. My point was more about the number of players in the backfield in regards to how the defense crowds the box. And that the entire team on a rushing team is dedicated towards the success of the run.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:25 pm to BrotherDawg84
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UGA lost a total of 3 games in the 3 years that Herschel was there, including post-season. Those 3 were lost by a total of 18 pts to Pitt, Clemson ('81 NC), and Penn St. ('82 NC). To compare that run to Cincy is idiotic at best, but I'll consider the source.
You only played 6 ranked teams in 3 years, and you lost to 3 of them. A .500 record.
In 1980, the year you won the NC, you played 1. #9(#7 time of game) Notre Dame. Also the highest ranked team you ever beat in those 3 years.
Derrick Henry played 4 top20 teams in 2015 alone, 7 if you count top25, and 9 if you are one of those dumb people who think time of game rankings are somehow accurate.
This post was edited on 6/5/22 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 6/5/22 at 3:46 pm to 3down10
You continue to cite this 70% of yardage after contact as if it’s a silver bullet. It isn’t. Contact with who? What type of contact. If the first defender I contact is a defense back it’s going to have a significant impact on the yardage accumulated thereafter verses if a defensive end or linebacker is contacted. Also this stat is wildly skewed by single long runs after contact. Ergo if I run through a gaping hole from a seven man box and the first person I contact is a DB seven yards downfield I stiff arm him and break a TD run of 70 yards. Then on the next 9 Carries I average 4 yards with 2 yards after contact.
I have a YPC average of 10.6 (106yds on 10 Carry’s)
And 76.4% of my yards come after contact (81 yards after contact on 106 yards). Even though the vast majority of my runs are 4.0 ypc and 50% after contact.
Yards after contact AND YPC is most positively aided by being contacted first by a DB. And this is most positively correlated with running out of passing formations.
If this wasn’t the case you’d have 11 defenders on the field who were 6’2” 200 lbs and run sub 4.5 40’s.
This is why % of offense is a much better indication of impact.
I have a YPC average of 10.6 (106yds on 10 Carry’s)
And 76.4% of my yards come after contact (81 yards after contact on 106 yards). Even though the vast majority of my runs are 4.0 ypc and 50% after contact.
Yards after contact AND YPC is most positively aided by being contacted first by a DB. And this is most positively correlated with running out of passing formations.
If this wasn’t the case you’d have 11 defenders on the field who were 6’2” 200 lbs and run sub 4.5 40’s.
This is why % of offense is a much better indication of impact.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:06 pm to 3down10
It’s a clarification that yards per carry and yards after contact are helped more by the threat of passing game than any effort of individual incremental increase.
It doesn’t disqualify, but it’s absolutely relevant if your attempting to make the argument that player A with 1 great sample season was better than player B with 3 great sample seasons. If you’re going to ask me to accept that logic then I have to take into consideration that individuals contribution to his team in his great season, and the manner in which he accumulated the credentials.
It doesn’t disqualify, but it’s absolutely relevant if your attempting to make the argument that player A with 1 great sample season was better than player B with 3 great sample seasons. If you’re going to ask me to accept that logic then I have to take into consideration that individuals contribution to his team in his great season, and the manner in which he accumulated the credentials.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:29 pm to Pulpwood Patterson
quote:
You continue to cite this 70% of yardage after contact as if it’s a silver bullet. It isn’t. Contact with who? What type of contact. If the first defender I contact is a defense back it’s going to have a significant impact on the yardage accumulated thereafter verses if a defensive end or linebacker is contacted. Also this stat is wildly skewed by single long runs after contact. Ergo if I run through a gaping hole from a seven man box and the first person I contact is a DB seven yards downfield I stiff arm him and break a TD run of 70 yards. Then on the next 9 Carries I average 4 yards with 2 yards after contact.
I have a YPC average of 10.6 (106yds on 10 Carry’s)
And 76.4% of my yards come after contact (81 yards after contact on 106 yards). Even though the vast majority of my runs are 4.0 ypc and 50% after contact.
Yards after contact AND YPC is most positively aided by being contacted first by a DB. And this is most positively correlated with running out of passing formations.
If this wasn’t the case you’d have 11 defenders on the field who were 6’2” 200 lbs and run sub 4.5 40’s.
You basically just described how yards per carry works in general.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:34 pm to 3down10
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70% of Derrick Henry's yards were after contact.
Cool. Safe to imagine the first contact was further up the field than he would have seen in a 1980 o.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:36 pm to Pulpwood Patterson
quote:
It’s a clarification that yards per carry and yards after contact are helped more by the threat of passing game than any effort of individual incremental increase.
It doesn’t disqualify, but it’s absolutely relevant if your attempting to make the argument that player A with 1 great sample season was better than player B with 3 great sample seasons. If you’re going to ask me to accept that logic then I have to take into consideration that individuals contribution to his team in his great season, and the manner in which he accumulated the credentials.
You don't even have the first clue how Henry's YPC or YAC works out, you are just assuming the worst possible way and running with it.
And Walker doesn't have 3 great sample seasons, he doesn't even have one. Again, 6 ranked teams in his entire 3 year career. Derrick Henry had 4 top20 teams in 2015 alone.
He didn't play anyone tough. His best win was against #9 Notre Dame, never beat a team ranked higher than that. The 3 times they played teams higher than that, Georgia/Walker lost.
And as I pointed out earlier, that ND game was all Georgia defense really.
His only SEC ranked win was in 1982, vs #14 Auburn.
What great sample seasons are you talking about? Who knows how many yards Henry could have run for playing against those low quality opponents all year long, rather than playing one of the toughest possible schedules.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:37 pm to djsdawg
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Cool. Safe to imagine the first contact was further up the field than he would have seen in a 1980 o.
No.
Once again here Georgia fans go pretending WR are extra players.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 4:38 pm to BrotherDawg84
quote:
Herschel Walker is the only player in history to finish in the top three in Heisman voting after each of his three college seasons.
Walker was also named the SEC Player of the Year and a consensus All-American all three years with the Bulldogs.
Case closed!
Posted on 6/5/22 at 5:01 pm to 3down10
quote:
Once again here Georgia fans go pretending WR are extra players.
Not at all. That point is all about the difference in space available to run.
The other one is about when a defender is first encountered.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 5:04 pm to djsdawg
quote:
Not at all. That point is all about the difference in space available to run.
The other one is about when a defender is first encountered.
A blocked defender is a blocked defender.
Your offense by choice brought the defenders in closer because it allows you to do more blocking schemes against them.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 5:48 pm to 3down10
I dont know and don’t particularly care how all his yards were accumulated. Ive watched many of his games college and pro. What I am confidently asserting is that YPC and YAC are chiefly influenced by where contact takes place and who contact occurs against. And Derrick Henry operates in a universe where that’s a reality. It undeniably confirms that runs out of passing formations are responsible for big gains more than runs out of run formations. That’s undeniable. If having the 10 best blockers on the field optimized running yards then Henry would be taking direct snaps behind a center and 9 offensive guards. He’s not, nor anything close to it. Every running back in the league would rather have open space than blockers.
So it’s not a leap of logic to say that a premiere running back gains more incrementally from a passing game than by anything they can do to enhance his own craft. It’s THAT significant.
HW didn’t have 1 great season?
So the former coaches and media members who professionally cover, coached, and promoted the game of college football and invited HW to the downtown athletic club three times, voted him 1st team all American 3 times, and SEC player of the year 3 times didn’t know what they were talking about? It doesn’t matter that he’s the all time rushing leader in the league.
It doesn’t matter that the greatest college coach in the modern era sat “the best HS RB ever” behind TJ Yeldon for over half his college career?
And the NFL Titans coaching staff sat Henry behind DeMarco Murray for 2.5 years didn’t know what they were doing either?
You are hanging your entire argument for HW not playing anybody based on polls. You realize of course that the polls are voted on by the exact same folks that voted him 3x SEC player of the year, 3x Heisman finalist, and UGA #1, #2,#1 at the end of the 80, 81, 82 seasons? You think maybe all that data was a consideration and his case was so strong it was irrelevant? You’re citing as evidence data generated by a group of folks clearly saying it doesn’t matter to tell us 40 years later they were wrong. Even though you’re counting on a poll they generated to make your case. If you don’t trust them to identify the greatest player, why would you trust any poll they generate?
So it’s not a leap of logic to say that a premiere running back gains more incrementally from a passing game than by anything they can do to enhance his own craft. It’s THAT significant.
HW didn’t have 1 great season?
So the former coaches and media members who professionally cover, coached, and promoted the game of college football and invited HW to the downtown athletic club three times, voted him 1st team all American 3 times, and SEC player of the year 3 times didn’t know what they were talking about? It doesn’t matter that he’s the all time rushing leader in the league.
It doesn’t matter that the greatest college coach in the modern era sat “the best HS RB ever” behind TJ Yeldon for over half his college career?
And the NFL Titans coaching staff sat Henry behind DeMarco Murray for 2.5 years didn’t know what they were doing either?
You are hanging your entire argument for HW not playing anybody based on polls. You realize of course that the polls are voted on by the exact same folks that voted him 3x SEC player of the year, 3x Heisman finalist, and UGA #1, #2,#1 at the end of the 80, 81, 82 seasons? You think maybe all that data was a consideration and his case was so strong it was irrelevant? You’re citing as evidence data generated by a group of folks clearly saying it doesn’t matter to tell us 40 years later they were wrong. Even though you’re counting on a poll they generated to make your case. If you don’t trust them to identify the greatest player, why would you trust any poll they generate?
Posted on 6/5/22 at 6:15 pm to Pulpwood Patterson
quote:
I dont know and don’t particularly care how all his yards were accumulated. Ive watched many of his games college and pro. What I am confidently asserting is that YPC and YAC are chiefly influenced by where contact takes place and who contact occurs against. And Derrick Henry operates in a universe where that’s a reality. It undeniably confirms that runs out of passing formations are responsible for big gains more than runs out of run formations. That’s undeniable. If having the 10 best blockers on the field optimized running yards then Henry would be taking direct snaps behind a center and 9 offensive guards. He’s not, nor anything close to it. Every running back in the league would rather have open space than blockers.
You're just completely full of shite with this entire paragraph, but I do applaud you for pointing it out in your first sentence.
quote:
HW didn’t have 1 great season?
So the former coaches and media members who professionally cover, coached, and promoted the game of college football and invited HW to the downtown athletic club three times, voted him 1st team all American 3 times, and SEC player of the year 3 times didn’t know what they were talking about? It doesn’t matter that he’s the all time rushing leader in the league.
I'm not sure why you need to pretend like I'm saying Walker sucks. He surely didn't suck. He was a great back, his team was much better with him, etc.
However, the fact of the matter is when you cite his stats, they aren't all that great because of the SoS he played. If you were to adjust his stats based on opponents played, which is SP+ does, Georgia doesn't even have a top25 offense. They have the #27th ranked offense in 1980.
I didn't have Walker #1 before Henry, and I don't have him #2 now. Bo Jackson played a way tougher schedule, while being bigger and faster.
quote:
It doesn’t matter that the greatest college coach in the modern era sat “the best HS RB ever” behind TJ Yeldon for over half his college career?
And the NFL Titans coaching staff sat Henry behind DeMarco Murray for 2.5 years didn’t know what they were doing either?
Yeah, all this means absolutely nothing. The fact you are bringing up things like that and thinking they are meaningful really highlights your lack of a real argument.
quote:
You are hanging your entire argument for HW not playing anybody based on polls. You realize of course that the polls are voted on by the exact same folks that voted him 3x SEC player of the year, 3x Heisman finalist, and UGA #1, #2,#1 at the end of the 80, 81, 82 seasons? You think maybe all that data was a consideration and his case was so strong it was irrelevant? You’re citing as evidence data generated by a group of folks clearly saying it doesn’t matter to tell us 40 years later they were wrong. Even though you’re counting on a poll they generated to make your case. If you don’t trust them to identify the greatest player, why would you trust any poll they generate?
Cool, he's the greatest SEC RB of 1980, 1981 and I'll concede 1982 since Bo was a freshman. Congrats.
Meanwhile, the best RB in SEC History is Derrick Henry, who ran for more yards in a single season than Walker was able to get in any of his 3 seasons, and did it while playing more tougher teams in that season than Walker faced over his entire 3 year career.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 6:50 pm to 3down10
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blocked defender is a blocked defender.
It goes beyond that. How much space is there?
There is less open space when there are 16 guys grouped in rather than 10, right?
Same idea applies to a crowded highway. Much safer to drive with more space, right?
Posted on 6/5/22 at 7:02 pm to djsdawg
quote:
It goes beyond that. How much space is there?
There is less open space when there are 16 guys grouped in rather than 10, right?
Same idea applies to a crowded highway. Much safer to drive with more space, right?
Space is created by your blockers. If you don't block a guy, figure out how much space you have.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 7:16 pm to 3down10
quote:
Space is created by your blockers.
That is one way and this can happen on any play in any formation.
There is a second way:
Space is also created by players being spread across the field.
What do you think happens when you Combine a good block with players more spread out?
More space = more yards.
Posted on 6/5/22 at 7:19 pm to 3down10
quote:
If you don't block a guy, figure out how much space you have.
Well, if there is an open space next to the guy, then there is more space to run into.
If there is not open space next to the guy, then there is less space
Posted on 6/5/22 at 7:22 pm to djsdawg
Lol, the return of Durden. Classic.
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