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re: Arkansas Football
Posted on 1/23/09 at 9:14 am to pioneerbasketball
Posted on 1/23/09 at 9:14 am to pioneerbasketball
quote:
Hate to agree with him but everything he has said is valid.
No it's not. He is cherry-picking his points. For example, if he wants to use CFBdata he does, but these lifetime rankings reflect performances all the way back to the no-helmet, no-teeth era of Harvard, Princeton, Army, etc. Sorry, but that era is hardly relevant as a predictor of present and future success.
He continually maligns the old SWC. As I recall, he wasn't around to have seen the 60s or 70s FB era, but now he is an expert. CFdata warehouse calls us the #4 program of the 60s, for example. To 10 in the 70s as well. Not iron-clad data, mind you, but pretty good stuff.
TBird's believes that top SEC status is a birthright of his top 6, and that no one can ascend to this. Of course, the fact Fl was pretty crappy pre-Spurrier is glossed-over, LSU's voyage into the wilderness in the 90s is as well, as is Bama's recent drought. These are all easily explained, of course. But with mind-boggling myopia, TBird is incapable of accepting our explanations of what nearly destroyed OUR fb team. I've yet to see him ever accept a valid counterpoint to one of his points.
No my friends, SEC success is a birthright to Tbird, who never can accept that power is fluid, systems are never static, and the mighty can, in fact, fall. The examples of Notre Dame, FlSt, Miami are all lost to Tbird. Of course, these storied programs can fail, but the top 6 in the SEC never will. GM can go bankrupt while Toyota ascends the throne, but this fate will never befall Florida. Rome can fall, but not our SEC gang-of-six.
It is always a mistake to allow your competition to define you for yourself.
Arkansas either will or will not ascend. It will boil down to recruiting and coaching, just like it did during the Broyles era. Only time will tell
3
Posted on 1/23/09 at 9:32 am to DocHog
But here is the thing that Hog fans miss when analyzing the data from ESPN or from CFBDataWarehouse.
Arkansas was great in the 60s and 70s. There is no doubt about that. They were a national power back then.
Then why can't they reclaim those times? Why can't they easily ascend to power as schools such as LSU, Florida, Alabama and Tennessee have shown to be able to do after extended (or short in the case of Florida) down periods?
It's because Arkansas no longer has the ability to recruit in Texas, and their home-grown talent is not to the level of that of Louisiana, Mississippi or Alabama. Therefore, they must be able to recruit elsewhere. In their glory years of the 60s and 70s, they were a member of the SWC. It's important to note that they were the only member of that conference not from the state of Texas. Therefore, all of their road games were played in the state of Texas, and their big game - the Cotton Bowl - was in Texas. None of this holds true anymore.
So LSU was able to rise from a program that was a little worse than Arkansas in the 90s to become one much more accomplished in the 2000s. Why? Because we have the essential building block of quality in-state talent. Once we added quality coaching to that building block, we ascended.
Arkansas may have nice facilities. So does Texas A&M, but we see what nice facilities have done for those programs recently. It's coaching and talent, talent and coaching.
But don't stop trying, Arkansas.
Arkansas was great in the 60s and 70s. There is no doubt about that. They were a national power back then.
Then why can't they reclaim those times? Why can't they easily ascend to power as schools such as LSU, Florida, Alabama and Tennessee have shown to be able to do after extended (or short in the case of Florida) down periods?
It's because Arkansas no longer has the ability to recruit in Texas, and their home-grown talent is not to the level of that of Louisiana, Mississippi or Alabama. Therefore, they must be able to recruit elsewhere. In their glory years of the 60s and 70s, they were a member of the SWC. It's important to note that they were the only member of that conference not from the state of Texas. Therefore, all of their road games were played in the state of Texas, and their big game - the Cotton Bowl - was in Texas. None of this holds true anymore.
So LSU was able to rise from a program that was a little worse than Arkansas in the 90s to become one much more accomplished in the 2000s. Why? Because we have the essential building block of quality in-state talent. Once we added quality coaching to that building block, we ascended.
Arkansas may have nice facilities. So does Texas A&M, but we see what nice facilities have done for those programs recently. It's coaching and talent, talent and coaching.
But don't stop trying, Arkansas.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 9:35 am to DocHog
One more thing...
It's not that it's a "birthright" given to these 6 programs.
It's that these 6 programs are able to put together the required mix of coaching and talent to be successful. Where Arkansas will fall short is in their ability to recruit talent.
quote:
No my friends, SEC success is a birthright to Tbird, who never can accept that power is fluid, systems are never static, and the mighty can, in fact, fall. The examples of Notre Dame, FlSt, Miami are all lost to Tbird. Of course, these storied programs can fail, but the top 6 in the SEC never will. GM can go bankrupt while Toyota ascends the throne, but this fate will never befall Florida. Rome can fall, but not our SEC gang-of-six.
It's not that it's a "birthright" given to these 6 programs.
It's that these 6 programs are able to put together the required mix of coaching and talent to be successful. Where Arkansas will fall short is in their ability to recruit talent.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 10:10 am to Homesick Tiger
quote:
No offense Hawg but I have lived here since '83 and have sat back and watched and listened to the hogmania pounded into our heads since day one. The fans are passionate about their football team, only not passionate enough. The foremost topic every season is "we want to make a bowl". That's fine and dandy but when are you people going to get really pissed about not making the name bowls. Mediocrity seems to satisfy most folks up here just as long as they "go bowling".
And you think we got rid of Nutt why??
Posted on 1/23/09 at 10:30 am to hogbody
no kidding and we are recruiting nationally better than we ever have at any point in Arkansas football history-- pulling kids from California to Florida -- coast to coast -- they all want to be a part of Petrino's crew. No more 3 and 4 star felons in our future.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 2:52 pm to hogbody
quote:
And you think we got rid of Nutt why??
There you go with the Nutt excuse, again. He hasn't been the only coach since '83. You've gone thru about a half dozen since '83 and still no national powerhouse recognition. Maybe Petrino is the man - I don't know but you guys have swallowed him hook, line, and sinker since his midnight arrival. Yes, recruiting looks better than in years past but so does pretty much everyone else's.
I don't put much stock into comparing teams 20-40 years ago. Different kind of football as compared to today. Hell, I can remember when LSU would lose to Tulane and even Rice one time, I think. However, those programs didn't compare in stature to LSU.
The next 3-4 years should give us good insight of the Petrino philosophy. I would think that would be enough time, don't you? Finishing in the top 10 70-80% is what excites me about college football, not once in a blue moon.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:07 pm to thunderbird1100
quote:
but we've been to and won plenty big bowl games, SEC Championships and even have a NC before the 1990s.
yeah, but it seems you're trying to come off as LSU being one of the elite schools from the past and that's really not to accurate. Before 2001, LSU was really a good middle of the pack SEC school.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:08 pm to Tiger Phil
quote:
Where Arkansas will fall short is in their ability to recruit talent.
How does Tennessee do it?
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:29 pm to Cdawg
quote:
How does Tennessee do it?
The same way that Michigan does it. By recruiting the neighboring states extremely well, and by having a fanbase that demands excellence.
But the thing that Tennessee has going for it that Arkansas does not is that Tennessee plays in the states that it has always recruited, whereas Arkansas no longer gets to play as much in Texas.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:31 pm to Cdawg
quote:
yeah, but it seems you're trying to come off as LSU being one of the elite schools from the past and that's really not to accurate. Before 2001, LSU was really a good middle of the pack SEC school.
LSU has always been the third best program in the SEC behind Alabama and Tennessee. There were periods in which Georgia has been better than LSU and slipped ahead, but over the long haul, and yes even if we exclude the just-previous 7 years, LSU is the third best program.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:32 pm to Tiger Phil
No florida?
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:34 pm to DocHog
quote:
No it's not. He is cherry-picking his points. For example, if he wants to use CFBdata he does, but these lifetime rankings reflect performances all the way back to the no-helmet, no-teeth era of Harvard, Princeton, Army, etc. Sorry, but that era is hardly relevant as a predictor of present and future success.
ESPN is the one cherry picking. They put all these useless biased categories like heismans, weeks ranked as ap no. 1, all americans...etc...Yet ignores SOS completely AND on top sees all conferences (new and old) as equals?
CFBdatawarehouse simplifies everything into the most important categories in determining a program. National Titles, Big bowl games wins in those games to go along with SOS and winning percentage. none of the biased crap like heismans, weeks at AP no. 1 etc... ESPN's "forumla" is mediocre at best, and doesn't even encompass all of CFB history. Just from 1936. These programs played football pre-1936 (well, most).
quote:
He continually maligns the old SWC. As I recall, he wasn't around to have seen the 60s or 70s FB era, but now he is an expert. CFdata warehouse calls us the #4 program of the 60s, for example. To 10 in the 70s as well. Not iron-clad data, mind you, but pretty good stuff.
Maligned? The SWC was weak, bottom line. It was Texas, Texas A & M, you guys and then a bunch of nobodies. Half the conference ended up as mid-majors after the split-up. You don't have to have lived during it to see the scores and history of it. Just like you don't have to have lived during the civil war to understand it or see the results. To compare the SWC to the SEC is laughable at best. Not to mention it's quite clear the SEC is way tougher considering Arkansas' fall since joining the SEC. It can very easily be argued a big part of why Arkansas was so much better then than they are now would be the weaker overall competition.
quote:
TBird's believes that top SEC status is a birthright of his top 6, and that no one can ascend to this. Of course, the fact Fl was pretty crappy pre-Spurrier is glossed-over, LSU's voyage into the wilderness in the 90s is as well, as is Bama's recent drought. These are all easily explained, of course. But with mind-boggling myopia, TBird is incapable of accepting our explanations of what nearly destroyed OUR fb team. I've yet to see him ever accept a valid counterpoint to one of his points.
What counter-points? The SEC "destroyed" Arkansas' program in terms of where it was. The competition got much tougher on you guys. It's really as simple as that.
Florida is in...drum roll, Florida. Took a while for them to get to their potential but it was always there. LSU had ONE down decade but has had mucho success in the SEC pre and post 1990s...LSU is in a talent rich state with no in-state recruiting competition. These teams have the talent nearby to compete in the SEc at the top. Arkansas does not and cannot establish a recruiting base very well out of state. It's the Big 6 in the SEC for a reason and it's because no other team has won the conference since 1976 UK. That's a straight up fact.
quote:
No my friends, SEC success is a birthright to Tbird, who never can accept that power is fluid, systems are never static, and the mighty can, in fact, fall. The examples of Notre Dame, FlSt, Miami are all lost to Tbird. Of course, these storied programs can fail, but the top 6 in the SEC never will. GM can go bankrupt while Toyota ascends the throne, but this fate will never befall Florida. Rome can fall, but not our SEC gang-of-six.
What you apparently have a hard time understand is the situation of these programs. Arkansas does not have a recruiting base, therefore won't compete with alongside those to teams with any consistency...and haven't for coming on close to 20 seasons now. The problem here is you see Arkansas as a program capable of being as consistent as the SEC Big 6 is and that's simply not the case because you refuse to accept the fact you do not have their recruiting bases nor will anytime soon.
quote:
It is always a mistake to allow your competition to define you for yourself.
I haven't defined you. You have defined yourselves already. I'm simply pointing out the facts. Facts like you have a total of 3 ranked finishes since joining the SEC in 17 seasons. Facts like you have a total of 7 losing seasons since joining the SEC in 17 seasons spread out fairly well (showing no consistency). Facts like Arkansas has never won an SEC Championship nor even been to a big bowl game since joining the SEC in 17 seasons. You have already defined yourself, you just refuse to accept where Arkansas is and will be for the most part in this conference with the evidence staring you right in the face.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:38 pm to Tiger Phil
I've always considered them tied with UGA and Auburn with maybe UGA being a little better. But that's my perspective.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:40 pm to Tiger Phil
quote:
But the thing that Tennessee has going for it that Arkansas does not is that Tennessee plays in the states that it has always recruited, whereas Arkansas no longer gets to play as much in Texas
yeah, but alot of their recruits still do not come from the SEC States.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 4:42 pm to pioneerbasketball
quote:
No florida?
Florida really wasnt' anything until 1990.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 5:22 pm to Homesick Tiger
quote:
There you go with the Nutt excuse, again. He hasn't been the only coach since '83. You've gone thru about a half dozen since '83 and still no national powerhouse recognition. Maybe Petrino is the man - I don't know but you guys have swallowed him hook, line, and sinker since his midnight arrival. Yes, recruiting looks better than in years past but so does pretty much everyone else's.
I was replying to the guy that thought we were fine being mediocre. If that were true, then we would have had no problem at all with Nutt. Obviously fans wanted more. Now we hope to move forward.
I don't think most Razorback fans have outlandish expectations. I would simply like to see improvemnt. I'd like to actually win the SECCG in the next 5-6 years, which would put us in a BCS Bowl finally. I also don't see why we can't at least get close to making the NC game every 10 or so years. I don't think that's TOO much to ask.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 5:32 pm to hogbody
quote:
I don't think that's TOO much to ask.
B-b-b-b-but you're Arkansas. You just have to accept your role. You shouldn't try to improve.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 6:05 pm to HawgAlude
quote:
no kidding and we are recruiting nationally better than we ever have at any point in Arkansas football history-- pulling kids from California to Florida -- coast to coast -- they all want to be a part of Petrino's crew. No more 3 and 4 star felons in our future.
Arkansas has 28 commits right now and there's 6 4-stars and 1 5-star (rivals). 1 of the 4-stars and the 5-star are from Arkansas, another 4-star is from prep school and 2 more 4-stars are JUCOs. That means you have 2 total 4-stars that are true out of state high school commits. Which isn't much at all, especially when I'm looking over 1 of their offer sheets which is Austin Moss from Texas and he didn't even have offers from LSU, Texas or Oklahoma.
I'm assuming you're also going to have quite a bit of attrition from this class since you've already got 28 guys and are expecting more. While the class looks great now to Arkansas fans, consider it still is only the #7 class in the SEC (well, will be #6 tomorrow with the recent commit, but you will have 11 more commits than the team you're passing).
Posted on 1/23/09 at 6:08 pm to Cdawg
quote:
yeah, but it seems you're trying to come off as LSU being one of the elite schools from the past and that's really not to accurate. Before 2001, LSU was really a good middle of the pack SEC school.
Before 2001 we were at worst a Top 20 program instead of a surefire Top 15 program, arguably Top 10 program we are today. Hardly call that much worse. We're not so high in cfbdatawarehouse's ranking because of just this decade. We've had much success in the past.
Posted on 1/23/09 at 6:14 pm to hogbody
quote:
I also don't see why we can't at least get close to making the NC game every 10 or so years.
Unrealistic in the SEC. Sorry.
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