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Einstein's general relativity theory is questioned but still stands for now
Posted on 7/28/19 at 8:02 pm
Posted on 7/28/19 at 8:02 pm
More than 100 years after Albert Einstein published his iconic theory of general relativity, it is beginning to fray at the edges, said Andrea Ghez, UCLA professor of physics and astronomy. Now, in the most comprehensive test of general relativity near the monstrous black hole at the center of our galaxy, Ghez and her research team report July 25 in the journal Science that Einstein's theory of general relativity holds up.
"Einstein's right, at least for now," said Ghez, a co-lead author of the research. "We can absolutely rule out Newton's law of gravity. Our observations are consistent with Einstein's theory of general relativity. However, his theory is definitely showing vulnerability. It cannot fully explain gravity inside a black hole, and at some point we will need to move beyond Einstein's theory to a more comprehensive theory of gravity that explains what a black hole is."
Einstein's 1915 theory of general relativity holds that what we perceive as the force of gravity arises from the curvature of space and time. The scientist proposed that objects such as the sun and the Earth change this geometry. Einstein's theory is the best description of how gravity works, said Ghez, whose UCLA-led team of astronomers has made direct measurements of the phenomenon near a supermassive black hole -- research Ghez describes as "extreme astrophysics."
The laws of physics, including gravity, should be valid everywhere in the universe, said Ghez, who added that her research team is one of only two groups in the world to watch a star known as S0-2 make a complete orbit in three dimensions around the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. The full orbit takes 16 years, and the black hole's mass is about four million times that of the sun.
The researchers say their work is the most detailed study ever conducted into the supermassive black hole and Einstein's theory of general relativity.
More here : ScienceDaily
"Einstein's right, at least for now," said Ghez, a co-lead author of the research. "We can absolutely rule out Newton's law of gravity. Our observations are consistent with Einstein's theory of general relativity. However, his theory is definitely showing vulnerability. It cannot fully explain gravity inside a black hole, and at some point we will need to move beyond Einstein's theory to a more comprehensive theory of gravity that explains what a black hole is."
Einstein's 1915 theory of general relativity holds that what we perceive as the force of gravity arises from the curvature of space and time. The scientist proposed that objects such as the sun and the Earth change this geometry. Einstein's theory is the best description of how gravity works, said Ghez, whose UCLA-led team of astronomers has made direct measurements of the phenomenon near a supermassive black hole -- research Ghez describes as "extreme astrophysics."
The laws of physics, including gravity, should be valid everywhere in the universe, said Ghez, who added that her research team is one of only two groups in the world to watch a star known as S0-2 make a complete orbit in three dimensions around the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way. The full orbit takes 16 years, and the black hole's mass is about four million times that of the sun.
The researchers say their work is the most detailed study ever conducted into the supermassive black hole and Einstein's theory of general relativity.
More here : ScienceDaily
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Posted on 7/28/19 at 8:42 pm to Trumansfangs
Sheldon seemed to like it, so it's good enough for me.
Posted on 7/28/19 at 8:44 pm to Trumansfangs
quote:
More than 100 years after Albert Einstein published his iconic theory of general relativity, it is beginning to fray at the edges, said Andrea Ghez
Bitch says that without one iota of evidence.
She and many others have taken on GR and have been bitterly disappointed when it holds up to their challenges. Rather than continue to challenge the greatest theory of all time, they should apply their efforts to dovetailing it with quantum mechanics, as Edward Witten is doing.
Ghez’s success with visualizing the black hole at the center of the Milky Way has given her the big head. While her work is revolutionary and she deserves the maximum of accolades from the scientific community, it does not warrant dumb statements like this.
Posted on 7/29/19 at 3:35 pm to Trumansfangs
I do not see the outrage. She is saying it needs to be expounded on to fully explain the weirdness of black holes. There may be more to gravity. Einstein would be happy he is being challenged and that we actually have the tools to do the observations to prove, disprove, or advance the discussion.
why is everyone so angry these days?
why is everyone so angry these days?
Posted on 7/29/19 at 4:56 pm to yatesdog38
quote:
why is everyone so angry these days?
We aren't angry! You are angry!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
It is not a bad thing to challenge long standing scientific beliefs and see if they hold water or not as you said. Maybe Einstein was slightly off. That doesn't change the brilliance of his work, it just means that our ability to measure these events has improved beyond belief since his day.
Isaac Newton is still remembered as a genius even if there were some flaws in his theories that came to light well after he was dead and our ability to observe the universe had improved.
Posted on 7/29/19 at 5:13 pm to yatesdog38
quote:
She is saying it needs to be expounded on to fully explain the weirdness of black holes. There may be more to gravity.
Yes, there is a lot more to gravity but to say that GR is “fraying at the edges” is outrageous, even from someone of her standing in the scientific community. GR is solid and will never be proven wrong. Added to, yes, but not wrong like Newton’s theory was.
No one understands what gravity is but I think GR will eventually show us a link with quantum mechanics and we will discover that gravity is actually a function of one of the dimensions illustrated in String Theory. I think it “leaks” into the world of classical physics and is an extremely weak version of what it is in the quantum world.
Posted on 7/29/19 at 5:22 pm to Kentucker
quote:
gravity is actually a function of one of the dimensions illustrated in String Theory. I think it “leaks” into the world of classical physics and is an extremely weak version of what it is in the quantum world.
I have been reading a lot on string theory lately and the math does work out nicely but those dimensions defy my logical reasoning. I guess because I only see three dimensions plus time.
Posted on 7/29/19 at 5:33 pm to Commander Data
They defy everyone’s logical reasoning. 
We just aren’t built that way. That’s why we need AI to help us. We can build it with senses and powers of reasoning that we don’t have. Then it can “translate” what it observes into knowledge that we can make sense of.
We just aren’t built that way. That’s why we need AI to help us. We can build it with senses and powers of reasoning that we don’t have. Then it can “translate” what it observes into knowledge that we can make sense of.
Posted on 7/29/19 at 8:19 pm to Kentucker
quote:
Ghez’s success with visualizing the black hole at the center of the Milky Way has given her the big head. While her work is revolutionary and she deserves the maximum of accolades from the scientific community, it does not warrant dumb statements like this.
I bet if Einstein was female then.........theory is bulletproof!
Posted on 7/29/19 at 8:31 pm to MaroonNation
Being female is no longer a disadvantage in the scientific community. Nor, of course, is it an advantage. That's how it should always have been, but even species have to mature.
Modern men and women make up the most formidable species ever to exist on earth. It is way past time that we should be treating them as intellectual equals. That means that everyone is subject to both accolades and negative criticisms.
Modern men and women make up the most formidable species ever to exist on earth. It is way past time that we should be treating them as intellectual equals. That means that everyone is subject to both accolades and negative criticisms.
Posted on 7/30/19 at 3:09 pm to Kentucker
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Modern men and women make up the most formidable species ever to exist
I sometimes wonder if we should remove the word "modern" from your otherwise true statement.
Posted on 7/30/19 at 4:52 pm to Kentucker
quote:
Rather than continue to challenge the greatest theory of all time, they should apply their efforts to dovetailing it with quantum mechanics
Watched a show the other night that suggested this is sort of the Holy Grail in physics currently: Reconciling GR with quantum mechanics.
Posted on 7/30/19 at 6:41 pm to Commander Data
I used “modern” to distinguish us from the other human races that once existed. The Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo luzonensis, Homo floresiensis and at least one other as yet undiscovered species lived alongside us as recently as a few tens of thousands of years ago. We outlived them but we also mated with some of them, bringing some of their genes along with us into the modern era.
Why there is only one race of humans remaining is a mystery. However, as more and more information is gathered about the other, now extinct races, comes to light we are starting to realize that our race, while not necessarily smarter, was certainly more competitive and warring. We may have used our affinity for technology to out compete or even to eat the other species. In any case, we have used technology to get us this far. We can only hope that we don’t implant our warring nature into the certain AI that is on our horizon.
Why there is only one race of humans remaining is a mystery. However, as more and more information is gathered about the other, now extinct races, comes to light we are starting to realize that our race, while not necessarily smarter, was certainly more competitive and warring. We may have used our affinity for technology to out compete or even to eat the other species. In any case, we have used technology to get us this far. We can only hope that we don’t implant our warring nature into the certain AI that is on our horizon.
Posted on 7/30/19 at 6:47 pm to DomesticatedBoar
quote:
Watched a show the other night that suggested this is sort of the Holy Grail in physics currently: Reconciling GR with quantum mechanics.
In theory that’s already been done. String Theory meshes the two together very well. Of course, we don’t currently have a way to detect strings or their effects. However, most physicists accept ST and it seems to be only a matter of time before we’ll see applications of the theory.
Posted on 7/30/19 at 7:54 pm to Kentucker
Posted on 7/31/19 at 6:43 am to Trumansfangs
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NG seems to have a different "spin" on things.
In what respect?
quote:
Astronomers hope to one day find evidence that general relativity does not work in extreme gravitational environments, as that would provide a window into the possibility of new types of physics that may resolve some big mysteries in our understanding of the universe.
I think this amounts to a Don Quixote complex. GR and quantum mechanics do merge at some point but the better way to determine where, in my opinion, is to look from the QM side. Hoping that GR is wrong just chafes my butt. Time and time again this great theory has proven its accuracy and it will continue to do so.
Posted on 7/31/19 at 10:34 am to Kentucker
So why would any scientist "hope" that GR doesn't apply in extreme gravity wells? I don't get it. Gravity isn't an attractive force so to speak regardless of which object of mass you study. Super massive black holes still warp spacetime just the same as a white dwarf, right?
Posted on 7/31/19 at 12:33 pm to Commander Data
There is the whole dark matter, dark energy problem that GR doesn't completely account for, it does a whole lot but not all of the assumptions work. GR is pretty fricken amazing though.
previously it was the Theory of Everything. New evidence shows that is not the case. That is simply the reason it is a little frayed at the edges of... the event horizon.
previously it was the Theory of Everything. New evidence shows that is not the case. That is simply the reason it is a little frayed at the edges of... the event horizon.
Posted on 7/31/19 at 2:09 pm to yatesdog38
No physics is gonna explain the gravitational effects of dark matter until we know what the hell it is in the first place. Dark matter isn't a problem for GR. Not sure what you are alluding to.
Also, new evidence? Scientists have known that GR wasn't a theory of or for everything for close to a century now.
Also, new evidence? Scientists have known that GR wasn't a theory of or for everything for close to a century now.
Posted on 7/31/19 at 3:00 pm to Kentucker
quote:
NG seems to have a different "spin" on things.
In what respect?
The NG piece just seemed less disparaging.
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