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re: What do people get out of going to church on Easter once a year?

Posted on 4/21/14 at 1:43 pm to
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46617 posts
Posted on 4/21/14 at 1:43 pm to
quote:

What sort of "proof" are you looking for? I'm basing my argument off of the Biblical view of God and man and our relationship to one another. If you'd like me to give you scripture references to support my view, I can.


But why do you expect others to just take your word for it? God needs to back up what his book says. I was a christian for years, I can quote scripture with the best of them. Using the bible to prove the bible is nonsense.

If I saw someone call upon the name of God and part a large body of water in two, I'll believe in whatever that God's holy text says instantly. Thats all it would take. I need to see evidence of this being's existence and power. I need an unambiguous, openly visible sign directly from him when called upon so I know its him.

Or he could just show up right this second and tell me himself. That works too.

quote:

I'm not sure what "real world evidence" you are talking about. Everyone sins. Everyone is selfish to some degree. Everyone acts in ways that are contrary to the character of God (as revealed in the Bible). So therefore, everyone is a proof case on the sinfulness of mankind as proclaimed in the Bible. Just because not everyone is as bad as they could be doesn't prove they are not bad (according to God's standard).


Everyone does bad things, why call it sin? Why is killing another human evil but a lion killing all the infants of a neighboring clan just nature? What evidence is there that we arent just really intelligent animals?

Nonbelievers also do good things, but the bible says their works amount to nothing.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
41861 posts
Posted on 4/21/14 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

But why do you expect others to just take your word for it? God needs to back up what his book says. I was a christian for years, I can quote scripture with the best of them. Using the bible to prove the bible is nonsense.
Everyone has to start somewhere. You can't appeal backwards for eternity, but have to have a single point where all arguments flow from. In my case, it is the truth I believe is contained in the Bible. Everyone has their source somewhere. I'm very clear about mine.

If you believe the Bible, then God did back up what He had done. The Bible is supposed to be an account or a testament (a testimony) of events where God is the doing and the recorder of the events using human beings to transcribe them into a method (a book or collection of books) that people can reference to know that truth.

God would have to constantly being performing miracle after miracle to show His power to unbelievers like yourself, because even if He did the same things over and over again, there would still be people who didn't witness those things firsthand and would deny they happened. Then there are those who would witness them and attribute them to something else. Seeing is not always believing, but the whole religion is founded upon belief.

quote:

If I saw someone call upon the name of God and part a large body of water in two, I'll believe in whatever that God's holy text says instantly. Thats all it would take. I need to see evidence of this being's existence and power. I need an unambiguous, openly visible sign directly from him when called upon so I know its him.

Or he could just show up right this second and tell me himself. That works too.
You claim you would believe, but would you? There will always be someone who will not be convinced by "supernatural" events. There is always a natural explanation for them.

But let's say that you did witness a miracle of God and you were convinced, and you wrote down what you saw and told people about it. After you die, all that's left is the word-of-mouth and your document. People would doubt it all as your imagination, even though you, as a first-hand witness, recorded it. That's the "problem" we have with the Bible. Everyone wants to see these things for themselves but they aren't willing to listen to those who have seen it.

quote:

Everyone does bad things, why call it sin? Why is killing another human evil but a lion killing all the infants of a neighboring clan just nature? What evidence is there that we arent just really intelligent animals?

Nonbelievers also do good things, but the bible says their works amount to nothing.
Again I'll appeal to the Bible. God created humans, not lions, in His image and we have a different sort of worth than the animals do. Killing another human (murder) is an offense against God but killing a lion is not (in and of itself).

If you want to believe that we are no different than the lion (in the grand scheme of things, that is), then that's fine, but then you'll have to accept that there is no real morality except for the subjective rules we impose upon ourselves. There is no "do not murder" in the animal kingdom. For them, it is "kill or be killed". If you'd like to take that approach, then so be it.

Our civilized nations supported on a moral code of "do no harm" are forcing people to act against nature in that case. But also, in such a world, you have no right to tell me what I can and cannot do, because my moral code is just as good as yours, since there isn't an objective one to base them both upon.

And yes, the good works of unbelievers don't amount to anything in terms of where they will eventually end up. God requires good works but He requires more than that. Someone who shakes their fist at God while they help an old lady across the street is still incurring God's wrath. The rebellion against God doesn't have to be so dramatic, though. It could be as simple as not acknowledging God as Lord and trying to be our own little masters and gods. We are still enemies of God when we do that, regardless of the good and bad things we do.
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