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re: Does Calipari deserve National Coach of the Year?
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:38 pm to ocelot4ark
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:38 pm to ocelot4ark
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Umass & Memphis were not "recruited at the highest level.
do you not know who some of those players were?
Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose, Marcus Camby, Joey Dorsey, etc. He's been sending kids to the NBA for a long time. He had consistent #1 rankings and beat everyone while he was at UMass. UMass and Memphis were both powerhouses while he coached there.
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Well, since the level Cal's reached has never been done before, I'm just going to say "bullshite."
What? You do realize by saying this, you're completely and utterly proving my point, right? These kids came to play for Cal, not for UMass and Memphis.
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Otherwise, just give the fricking award to whoever wins the tournament.
we're talking about 40 frickin' wins and 0 frickin' losses.
0
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:39 pm to ocelot4ark
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2) I'm not discounting his ABILITY to coach at all.
you said him winning COY is a slap in the face to other coaches
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:40 pm to cas4t
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You also said the fact that he can recruit NBA talent is a slap in the face to other coaches who can't get NBA talent.
No. Actually, I didn't.
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It's amazing to me that anyone can think a coach doesn't deserve COY if they go 40-0. I mean, come on..
Don't get me wrong, I don't give a frick either way. But I ALWAYS had a problem with Phil Jackson winning COY when he had Jordan & Pippen and then with Shaq & Kobe. "Ohhhh yeah, so hard to win games with 2 of the greatest players EVER TO PLAY on the same team." Well, that applies to my thinking in all sports.
Just because someone lead a team to a championship, or some other noteworthy season doesn't mean, IMO, that they should automatically win the award. I think you have to look at the sum of the parts and weigh accordingly. For a COACHING award, I place more of an emphasis on the impact of the guy's coaching. In game coaching/preparation/etc.
If there was a "general manager" of the year, Cal would be a shoe-in. I'd argue FOR him. For coaching, I'm not saying he's a bad coach at ALL. I'm saying that he had a significantly easier path to victory than any other coach I can think of. Every time his team has taken the court this season, they've been the most talented team. Every single game. Yes, they still had to win the games and that's never easy (nor is it easy for any other team). But it's WAY more easy to withstand the duldrums of your season when you have 8 or 9 McDonald's All-Americans.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:41 pm to RT1941
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The talent the man has cultivated at 3 completely different programs couple with his ability to win at a super high level at those programs on a consistant basis speaks volumes for how he can COACH. Calapari is an elite coach and he has proven the deserves to coach at an elite school.
I needed some rational backup from a non UK fan.
It's the same line of thinking with Saban. I've heard people say "of course he recruits well and wins, he's at Alabama"
well he was pretty damn good at LSU too...good coaches get good jobs. You can't fault them for putting themselves in a better position than others are able to.
This post was edited on 4/2/15 at 2:42 pm
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:41 pm to ocelot4ark
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. But it's WAY more easy to withstand the duldrums of your season when you have 8 or 9 McDonald's All-Americans.
If it's so easy then why isn't Duke also undefeated?
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:42 pm to BluegrassBelle
Those are all fair points and I agree Ryan did a fantastic job. My only thing is I think a lot of great coaching jobs are ignored because the team doesn't do as well even though the coach puts in a heroic effort for what s/he has to work with. That doesn't mean they should be the ones selected but I'd like to see that aspect become more important and have them in the conversation more. One of them winning COY now and then would be good as well.
As for Smith... he can be fun to watch sometimes although those times are less and less these days but overall he's just there to say stupid shite and get a debate/argument going. And you're right, athletes don't live in a bubble.
ETA: I suppose my thing is that COY is sorta like the Heisman in that you can be great but if you play on a losing team you likely won't even make the ballot. I'd like to see that tweaked so good performances are rewarded regardless.
As for Smith... he can be fun to watch sometimes although those times are less and less these days but overall he's just there to say stupid shite and get a debate/argument going. And you're right, athletes don't live in a bubble.
ETA: I suppose my thing is that COY is sorta like the Heisman in that you can be great but if you play on a losing team you likely won't even make the ballot. I'd like to see that tweaked so good performances are rewarded regardless.
This post was edited on 4/2/15 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:45 pm to cas4t
And Tubby Smith couldn't recruit at near that level at UK, so it's not like anyone can step off a bus and get 8 McDonalds All Americans there. People who try to separate out recruiting from coaching drive me insane because recruiting is such an important piece of the puzzle at the college level.
On the flip side the guys who are "good coaches" but can't recruit elite talent almost get talked about in a sympathetic way, like "damn he was a great coach, just couldn't get the elite talent". frick that, recruiting is part of your job and if you don't do it well enough then you aren't a good coach
On the flip side the guys who are "good coaches" but can't recruit elite talent almost get talked about in a sympathetic way, like "damn he was a great coach, just couldn't get the elite talent". frick that, recruiting is part of your job and if you don't do it well enough then you aren't a good coach
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:46 pm to BluegrassBelle
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You're literally punishing him
Not winning an arbitrary COY award is a punishment?
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This isn't X's and O's COY.
Is that the official stance?
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And for the sake of talent comparison, he's not the only coach in the Final Four with 9 McDonald's All-Americans on the roster either.
My opinion on the matter wouldn't change if we were talking about Duke/Coach K.
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He likely won't have the POY on his roster either with Okafor and Kaminsky playing elsewhere.
I don't really see what that has to do with anything.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:47 pm to ocelot4ark
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Don't get me wrong, I don't give a frick either way. But I ALWAYS had a problem with Phil Jackson winning COY when he had Jordan & Pippen and then with Shaq & Kobe. "Ohhhh yeah, so hard to win games with 2 of the greatest players EVER TO PLAY on the same team." Well, that applies to my thinking in all sports.
well a GM drafted those players. It's completely different. Cal has to coach well enough to prove to kids and their parents that he can A) win at the highest level and B) get them to the NBA.
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Just because someone lead a team to a championship, or some other noteworthy season doesn't mean, IMO, that they should automatically win the award. I think you have to look at the sum of the parts and weigh accordingly
agreed. And I think being 38-0 does this.
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For a COACHING award, I place more of an emphasis on the impact of the guy's coaching. In game coaching/preparation/etc.
How much do you know about basketball? really, can you name the style of offense Cal runs with UK (same offense that he ran at Memphis at UK. The one he's all but perfected. And do you see him on the sidelines and with his players? He has won how many games this year by less than 5 points? I know he made some great adjustments vs LSU @ LSU. Bottom line, you can't say the man doesn't make in-game adjustments when in reality, you have no idea. It's not like he's mic'd up.
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If there was a "general manager" of the year, Cal would be a shoe-in
this is you, yet again, discounting his coaching ability. You're starting to come across as ignorant, and I thought we were having a legitimate debate here.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:48 pm to ShaneTheLegLechler
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And Tubby Smith couldn't recruit at near that level at UK, so it's not like anyone can step off a bus and get 8 McDonalds All Americans there. People who try to separate out recruiting from coaching drive me insane because recruiting is such an important piece of the puzzle at the college level.
On the flip side the guys who are "good coaches" but can't recruit elite talent almost get talked about in a sympathetic way, like "damn he was a great coach, just couldn't get the elite talent". frick that, recruiting is part of your job and if you don't do it well enough then you aren't a good coach
the arkansas poster in here is just attempting to come across as objective. In reality, we know he/she just hates Cal and UK.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:49 pm to BluegrassBelle
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If it's so easy then why isn't Duke also undefeated?
IDK. Maybe because they don't play in the SEC? We'll never know. But I'm not arguing for Coack K, either.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:49 pm to Prof
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Those are all fair points and I agree Ryan did a fantastic job. My only thing is I think a lot of great coaching jobs are ignored because the team doesn't do as well even though the coach puts in a heroic effort for what s/he has to work with. That doesn't mean they should be the ones selected but I'd like to see that aspect become more important and have them in the conversation more. One of them winning COY now and then would be good as well.
I just think this is getting into the "every body gets a ribbon" mentality. I mean, the best coaches win games. Period.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:53 pm to ShaneTheLegLechler
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frick that, recruiting is part of your job and if you don't do it well enough then you aren't a good coach
Off the top of your head, how many schools do you think can compete with UK when it comes to basketball facilities? Do facilities play a role in recruiting? How many schools can point to their success sending kids to the NBA with such frequent success? Is that a part of recruiting?
Yes - recruiting IS a part of every coach's job. No, recruiting is not an equal challenge for every coach. It's all relative. Sometimes the school just doesn't recruit itself (okay - most times). But UK is not one of those schools.
This post was edited on 4/2/15 at 3:01 pm
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:53 pm to cas4t
This thread has made it very easy to sort the sensible posters from rest. If we run the table, this isnt a debate. Considering we've set the NCAA record for wins in a season and win streak already, I'd say it never was much of a debate to begin with.
Funny how I never hear how Saban can't coach. He does the same thing.
Funny how I never hear how Saban can't coach. He does the same thing.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:59 pm to ocelot4ark
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Off the top of your head, how many schools do you think can compete with UK when it comes to basketball facilities? Do facilities play a role in recruiting? How many schools can point to their success sending schools to the NBA with such frequent success? Is that a part of recruiting?
I can think of probably 10 that have similar facilities. UNC, UCLA, Syracuse, Duke, Michigan St, Villanova, UConn...Not many SEC schools, but I know UF has phenomenal facilities, as I interned in their S&C department.
But again, Cal recruited at a high level at Memphis and UMass too. He's proved time and time over that being a winning/good coach is how you get the best players.
I guarantee you if Cal left for Memphis again tomorrow he'd have a top 5 team within 2 years. And they don't even have their own arena.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 2:59 pm to cas4t
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well a GM drafted those players. It's completely different. Cal has to coach well enough to prove to kids and their parents that he can A) win at the highest level and B) get them to the NBA.
And every other school DOESN'T have to do this to attract top talent? Are you saying UK doesn't have an advantage over, say, Mississippi State? It's almost as if being at UK makes it easier to recruit, on average, than most other places. I would guess that history and NBA distribution would back this up.
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And I think being 38-0 does this.
Good for you, but I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong.
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How much do you know about basketball? really, can you name the style of offense Cal runs with UK (same offense that he ran at Memphis at UK. The one he's all but perfected.
Completely irrelevant. You mention debate, but you can't even stay on topic.
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And do you see him on the sidelines and with his players?
Where else would he be? Methinks that this isn't a quality exclusive to Cal.
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He has won how many games this year by less than 5 points?
Irrelevant. Sounds like you're trying to convince me he's a good coach when I already know as much.
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Bottom line, you can't say the man doesn't make in-game adjustments when in reality, you have no idea. It's not like he's mic'd up.
Could you STFU with the false narratives? I don't put words in your mouth...maybe you could afford me the same courtesy? Comes across as very...countish.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 3:00 pm to cas4t
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The talent the man has cultivated at 3 completely different programs couple with his ability to win at a super high level at those programs on a consistant basis speaks volumes for how he can COACH. Calapari is an elite coach and he has proven the deserves to coach at an elite school.
quote:I made the same comparison about Saban earlier in this thread and "HogBalls" shite all over it.
I needed some rational backup from a non UK fan. It's the same line of thinking with Saban. I've heard people say "of course he recruits well and wins, he's at Alabama" well he was pretty damn good at LSU too...good coaches get good jobs. You can't fault them for putting themselves in a better position than others are able to.
Any true sports fan can sit back and look that the career's of Calari and Saban and see similarity in their coaching philisophy, team management skills, and how they maintain their programs.
Only a jealous rival fan will exhaust all of their time and energy trying to diminish, discredit, and devalue the accomplishments of those two coaches.
And when they get to the bottom of the barrel and throw up every possible reason to devalue them as "elite coaches" - they have no choice but to resort to juvenile excuses like they cheat, they are conference favorites, media darlings, the pay off the officials, or the conference was weak this year.......
Posted on 4/2/15 at 3:00 pm to cas4t
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I just think this is getting into the "every body gets a ribbon" mentality. I mean, the best coaches win games. Period.
Right, then just give the COY to the coach who wins the tournament.
I'm pretty sure every single one of you would HAVE to be okay with this, given the justifications for Cal potentially winning.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 3:03 pm to ocelot4ark
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Good for you, but I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong.
I can't believe I feel like I have to convince you that you are wrong.
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Completely irrelevant. You mention debate, but you can't even stay on topic.
You're the one who mentioned his in-game coaching strategies and shifting gameplans. If you can't name what type of offense UK runs, then you have no business judging a coaches in-game coaching ability. Sorry.
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Where else would he be? Methinks that this isn't a quality exclusive to Cal.
Again, you mentioned his in-game coaching. I simply pointed out that he seems to be very involved.
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Irrelevant. Sounds like you're trying to convince me he's a good coach when I already know as much.
No I'm trying to inform you that Cal is by far the most deserving of COY.
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Could you STFU with the false narratives? I don't put words in your mouth...maybe you could afford me the same courtesy? Comes across as very...countish.
you're the one who continues to make idiotic statements followed with nothing but back peddling.
Posted on 4/2/15 at 3:05 pm to cas4t
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I just think this is getting into the "every body gets a ribbon" mentality. I mean, the best coaches win games. Period.
Not always. If you're at a shitty school and/or inherited a shitty roster and get far more out of them should be possible then that ought to be recognized. I'm not even saying they should win just that this aspect/difficulty of the job + performance with that difficulty should be a part of the criteria (not the only criteria either).
This post was edited on 4/2/15 at 3:06 pm
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