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re: So Russia might have just invaded the Ukraine, kind of

Posted on 3/2/14 at 9:57 pm to
Posted by Rebelgator
Pripyat Bridge
Member since Mar 2010
39543 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 9:57 pm to
quote:

The whole reason the Ukraine protests began was because the Orange Revolution was a failure. Neither Yuschenko nor the imprisoned Tymoshenko were successful and Tymoshenko isn't seen as Ukraine's future because of some of her associations.

And a large part of the reason the Orange Revolution failed is that Russia used Gazprom to manipulate natural gas prices and effectively control countries like Ukraine, Armenia, Belarus, and others. When a nation the Russians deem theirs behaves as the Kremlin wants prices are cut but when they are acting like they have a right to self-determination or veer away from what Putin wants prices shoot up until said nation complies. By using a private company Gazprom to manipulate prices according to Putin's foreign policy goals (not according to real price but solely on a whim), Putin has been able to destabilize governments economically and politically and bully them into submission.

If countries don't comply they risk not just the wrath of the Kremlin but the real world effects that such steep spikes and politically motivated punitive actions have on their nation's economy, people, and government and those effects can be devastating.

Not long ago Putin used Gazprom to completely shut off the pipeline that runs through Ukraine in order to assert control over Ukraine and quite literally keep Ukraine from having any natural gas in the country at all. The only reason it didn't last longer is because by cutting off that pipeline they cut off other nation's gas supplies.

EuroMaidan and AutoMaidan protesters were well aware of this as is every other Eastern European. The Ukrainians who protested and the government which finally impeached Yanukovych were sick of this outside influence because that influence keeps their country on its knees. You take a nation already impoverished and unstable and subject it to huge spikes in gas charges and you wreck it. If such measures were tried by any other country and especially if they were tried against a country as economically strong as the US or an EU nation like Germany, France, or the UK, it would rightfully seen for what it is: an act of war that threatens the very existence of a nation state subjected to it. Russia gets away with it only because the nations it tries it on are small and neither economically nor militarily strong.

Here's how wonderful and 'free of self-interest' Russia's deals are:

A few months ago Armenia was expected to sign a document with the EU. Guess what happened? Gazprom then suddenly raised prices and Armenia reversed course/changed its mind. Gazprom cut Armenia prices to $189 (had been $270). Armenia is now expected to join Putin's "Eurasian Economic Union." Know who else is on that list? Belarus (aka Europe's last dictatorship) and Ukraine (Ukraine is on it because Russia considers both Belarus and Ukraine to be satellite states).

In fact, Viktor Yanukovych who was supposed to sign documents bring Ukraine closer to the EU that had already been agreed upon - this was what the population of Ukraine wanted. Instead Yanukovycch rejected a bigger bailout from the EU for a smaller bailout from Russia and of course Gazprom promised to lower rates as a nice payoff/ deal sweetner. Of course if you don't take their off rates will skyrocket. Guess what Gazprom's doing now? That's right - they're considering raising Ukraine's rates.

In the past, when Ukraine started diversifying their natural gas imports to make them less vulnerable to Putin and Gazprom you can guess exactly what happened.


Posted by Sleeping Tiger
Member since Sep 2013
8488 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 9:58 pm to
quote:

Prof


Missed the evil vs evil part I'm guessing.

This isn't about taking sides, Russia isn't innocent at all.

The US is guilty of the same things, and with the same manipulative intentions.

This post was edited on 3/2/14 at 9:59 pm
Posted by Rebelgator
Pripyat Bridge
Member since Mar 2010
39543 posts
Posted on 3/2/14 at 10:06 pm to
Posted by Porter Osborne Jr
Member since Sep 2012
40000 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 11:52 am to
quote:

The US is guilty of the same things, and with the same manipulative intentions.



I believe that his happens but who do we do this to?
Posted by Sleeping Tiger
Member since Sep 2013
8488 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 12:35 pm to
quote:



I believe that his happens but who do we do this to?


In this case I'm talking about Ukraine.

We have been spending billions on subverting their political scene in an effort to get and maintain regimes that favor western interests. This is not a hidden fact, it's out in the open.

We are wanting them to sign their debt over to the western banking block because then they'll be owned by the west. They'll have control of the pipelines that run into Russia, NATO can move in and set up shop ect.

There's an assortment of major economic and military benefits for the US and the western world if they have control of Ukraine. My argument in this thread is for that to be recognized in an effort to understand Russia's position.
Posted by Porter Osborne Jr
Member since Sep 2012
40000 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 12:45 pm to
Gotcha, I see what you're saying but I thought you meant something else. Thanks.
Posted by Pavoloco83
Acworth Ga. too many damn dawgs
Member since Nov 2013
15347 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 12:58 pm to
The US cant and wont do shite. And Putin knows it.

Whats happening now with the financial markets crushing the value of the ruble is probably the best way to put any force at all on Russia.
Posted by Person of interest
The Hill
Member since Jan 2014
1786 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 1:22 pm to
quote:

The US and Washington establishment organizations have spent billions funding Yushchenko's rise to presidency and subverting the Ukraine political scene. This is undeniable. It is fact. It's not hidden. It's available many places online if you want to know the truth.

"one part that we do know thus far is that the U.S. government, through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), granted millions of dollars to the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), which is administered by the U.S.-based Freedom House. PAUCI then sent U.S. Government funds to numerous Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs). This would be bad enough and would in itself constitute meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation. But, what is worse is that many of these grantee organizations in Ukraine are blatantly in favor of presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko. LINK

Russia offered the Ukraine a financially no strings attached loan, while the EU said -- sign on the dotted line and you're now a complete puppet for western interests.

Of course Russia want's to keep the Ukraine under it's sphere of influence, it makes sense both economically and militarily. At the same time recognize that the west wants it for the same reasons.


The truth.
Posted by Mizzeaux
Worshington
Member since Jun 2012
13894 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 2:14 pm to
I tend to think about the whole situation on more of a personal level. While it's not possible to eliminate global politics from the situation what really matters is that a populace (supported by outside influences or not) protested and basically ran a terrible politician out of office.

Just looking at it from the view of the Ukrainian people, the moves made by the Yanukovych government since November were terrible for the people of Ukraine and the demcracy as a whole. He needed to be removed and the changes made by his government needed to be removed wholesale.

Outside influences definitely had an effect on the overall success of the months long protests and conflicts between the government and the people, but the reasons the vast majority of the people taking part in Euromaidan were there had little to do with outside support. While there were some people that were manning the baracades as a type job, a good portion of the participants came to the streets to support the cause after work. A lot of the action happened at night for that reason, including the events that took place at Ukraine House.

Like I said, there's a lot of global politics involved, but lets not let politics get in the way of the real issue at hand when it comes to Yunukovych needing to be gone.

Yulia getting out was great, but she is not, and should not be, the future of Ukrainian government.
This post was edited on 3/3/14 at 2:16 pm
Posted by Sleeping Tiger
Member since Sep 2013
8488 posts
Posted on 3/3/14 at 3:06 pm to
The dictating pro Russian government had to go, absolutely.

And it is a shame that the citizens of Ukraine are basically ping pong balls for global political agendas. It's an awful predicament.
Posted by DynastyDawg
Relf-Coast
Member since Jan 2013
10886 posts
Posted on 3/4/14 at 10:42 am to
John Kerry live from Kiev

Pledges $1 Billion dollars in Aide to Ukraine.

Talks too many shits to Russia.

US Administration is Dumbass.
Posted by 3nOut
Central Texas, TX
Member since Jan 2013
28883 posts
Posted on 3/4/14 at 2:02 pm to
Putin seems content to stop in Eastern Ukraine

Good that there's no more aggression at this point.

Posted by Mizzeaux
Worshington
Member since Jun 2012
13894 posts
Posted on 3/4/14 at 2:25 pm to
I don't see him saying that the part he has now is all that he wants making the situation much better. The fact that he's camping out in Crimea (which is also Eastern Ukraine) is still pretty aggressive.

Unless he says he won't invade the rest of eastern Ukraine and pinky swears, then maybe Crimea isn't too big a deal.
This post was edited on 3/4/14 at 2:26 pm
Posted by oR33Do
Tuscaloosa
Member since Oct 2012
13561 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 2:07 pm to
Anyone have any concrete news on USS George HW Bush being granted passage to Black Sea by Turkey?

The ships website has them in the region as on yesterday (Greece) so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

All I've been able to find is stuff from Russia Today and I don't trust that website.
Posted by Damn Good Dawg
Member since Feb 2011
47325 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 2:50 pm to
Idk why Turkey would bar their access. Speaking of which, do we still have a carrier fleet in Asia? Where are they at?
Posted by heartbreakTiger
grinding for my grinders
Member since Jan 2008
138974 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 4:19 pm to
Putin has them surrounded by sharks he has tamed.
Posted by JustGetItRight
Member since Jan 2012
15712 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

Anyone have any concrete news on USS George HW Bush being granted passage to Black Sea by Turkey?


I seriously, seriously doubt a US carrier battle group would ever enter the Black sea.

Posted by oR33Do
Tuscaloosa
Member since Oct 2012
13561 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 6:01 pm to
Well I was asking because a friend of mine from Ukraine asked me if it was true. Because his media and gov outlets have said it was true in a round about way.

For what I know is that there is an agreement that turkey won't allow aircraft carriers into the black sea and the USS GHW Bush is way to heavy.

I found this that agrees with my thought. Most likely a smaller ship.
Posted by Damn Good Dawg
Member since Feb 2011
47325 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 6:14 pm to
quote:

Putin has them surrounded by sharks he has tamed.


That and bears. Lots of bears
quote:

Doubt a carrier group would enter the Black Sea

Never seen that Mon-whatever convention stuff before. Interesting the rules they have on the black sea.

Ok, well, then I guess keep the USS H W Bush in Greece or around there
Posted by oR33Do
Tuscaloosa
Member since Oct 2012
13561 posts
Posted on 3/5/14 at 6:21 pm to
There is no real need for the carrier to be in the black sea. It can do its mission where it is docked at in Greece effectively. In the black sea it would be a sitting duck.
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