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re: So Russia might have just invaded the Ukraine, kind of
Posted on 3/2/14 at 9:52 am to Prof
Posted on 3/2/14 at 9:52 am to Prof
Interesting read, Russians hate us and probably understandably. I think there is definitely some war fatigue here in the states and I am personally tired of us trying to govern the whole world.
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Posted on 3/2/14 at 10:00 am to reb13
quote:
and I am personally tired of us trying to govern the whole world.
when we're not governing that's when world wars break out.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 10:07 am to Prof
quote:
Ukraine has 144,000 standing troops. ~4,000 tanks, 2,000 various artillery pieces (self-propelled and towed), 100 combat helicopters, separate AF, supersonic aircraft, to name a few things. Ukraine's standing troops are larger than BOTH the UK's and France.
I'm sure you're not suggesting that this army is big enough to take on Russia's and expect victory.
quote:
And the Rhineland was once a part of Germany, what's the big deal if that guy flying that weird flag wants to take it?
Comparing Putin's Russia to Hitler's Germany is a little overboard wouldn't you say?
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However, the idiotic suggestion that Crimea is Russian is just that: idiotic. Crimea isn't Russian. So who are the Crimeans 'historically'? How bout you read up on that and get back to us. LINK
quote:
Ethnic groups (2001)
58.32% Russians
24.32% Ukrainians
12.10% Crimean Tatars
Providing a link to tell us that 60% of Crimea are native Russians? Thanks. I believe you said that was "idiotic" and then gave me a link to show you otherwise.
quote:
As to what Crimea's saying now? Well, you do realize that Russia showed up a few days ago, sent armed troops into their local parliament and with GUNS POINTED at the heads of those officials had those officials pass a law saying they'd consider the question of Crimean independence in May -- a question that didn't exist as Crimea did NOT want to break away until Russia showed up and pointed guns at their politicians?
Link please? Because that's not being reported anywhere.
Look at this link below. Middle map. It shows you where the Russian population is in the Ukraine. That's the only places where Russia is involved currently.
LINK
Posted on 3/2/14 at 10:08 am to Prof
Question for anyone criticizing the President "for not doing enough" to deter Russia from detaching Crimea from Ukraine, what exactly do you want him to do?
Order the 6th fleet into the Black Sea? Assuming you can secure Turkish cooperation for that sort of escalation, how far do you want to go in this? We're not talking about some kind of ragtag Iraqi forces or Afghan tribesmen here...this is Russia. Or do you just want to us to revert back towards a political Cold War posture?
I see Romney being cited here as some sort of foreign policy prophet. I vaguely remember him making some general statement about Russia being a competitor to the U.S, but not exactly a threat. He certainly didn't make a big deal out of thwarting Russian expansionism out on the campaign trail. Just kind of hard for me to imagine a Romney administration behaving much differently than the current administration on this issue, at least up to this point.
Order the 6th fleet into the Black Sea? Assuming you can secure Turkish cooperation for that sort of escalation, how far do you want to go in this? We're not talking about some kind of ragtag Iraqi forces or Afghan tribesmen here...this is Russia. Or do you just want to us to revert back towards a political Cold War posture?
I see Romney being cited here as some sort of foreign policy prophet. I vaguely remember him making some general statement about Russia being a competitor to the U.S, but not exactly a threat. He certainly didn't make a big deal out of thwarting Russian expansionism out on the campaign trail. Just kind of hard for me to imagine a Romney administration behaving much differently than the current administration on this issue, at least up to this point.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 10:12 am to Prof
quote:
because Obama hurt their feelings. According to them Obama's speech was "aggressive" and "crossed the red line and insulted the Russian people" and his words a "direct threat" to precious President Pooty-poot inalienable right to annex whatever neighboring country's land he wants when he wants:
What Obama needs to do is shut his fricking mouth. Russia doesn't give a shite about our "public condemnation". I thought the phone call to Putin was a good move. Speaking to him directly is a good way to go about it. However after getting off the phone and issuing a statement trying to look like a badass completely negated any progress you might have made on the phone.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 11:45 am to PikeBishop
Two points.
I just want Obama to stop making public statements when we all know there is nothing he will or should do. This is delicate. America is war weary.
It's not that Romney was a prophet or would do anything different. I just noted the hate he got for a factual statement. Nothing more and nothing less.
I just want Obama to stop making public statements when we all know there is nothing he will or should do. This is delicate. America is war weary.
It's not that Romney was a prophet or would do anything different. I just noted the hate he got for a factual statement. Nothing more and nothing less.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 12:16 pm to Duke
I agree.
Even if Romney was a full on Mormon planet-promised prophet, does it make it our business?
IDGAF. I do not want to watch the world burn. I don't really care if half of Ukraine does, though. We've made our choices in world-policing. Who are we to refuse Russia's desire to impose its values on a region of Ukraine that is mostly agreeable to their agenda?
Even if Romney was a full on Mormon planet-promised prophet, does it make it our business?
IDGAF. I do not want to watch the world burn. I don't really care if half of Ukraine does, though. We've made our choices in world-policing. Who are we to refuse Russia's desire to impose its values on a region of Ukraine that is mostly agreeable to their agenda?
Posted on 3/2/14 at 1:59 pm to DynastyDawg
You keep seeing what you want to see. Crimean Tatars are the only ones with a real claim to Crimea. Those ethnic Russians (btw, they are 2 kinds of 'ethnic' Russian just as there two words for russian. The first is a russian who has a tie to Russia in a geo-political since whereas the second is the kind who has a linguistic tie. These two groups are not equal and Russian speakers which the Kremlin has made their invasion case on have no tie to Russia other than language. Should Mexico invade Texas to protect Spanish speaking Mexican Americans who've been here for generations?) are not all pro-Russia. It's not even accurate to call them Russian because they're not - they're Russian speakers. Most countries have multiple language groups and yet they're all one nationality - we have 100s of languages yet they're all Americans.
But back to the Russian-speaking population of Crimea 1. they're not all Russians nor are they all pro-Russian (the fact that the newly militarily installed PM of the Russian Unity Party only garnered 4 percent in the 2012 vote should be your clue 2. the only reason Russian-speakers form a slim majority in Crimea is because STALIN PUT THEM THERE and forced the native Crimean Tatars out. The Crimean Tatars who remain in Crimea are related to the Ottomans (aka Modern Turkey which is a NATO nation - look at a map and it will enlighten you). They're also related to Tatars and Turkic people across all of the Baltic states and all of the Russian heartland, including Chechnya. If you don't grasp the significance of that then just imagine terrorists bombing going boom all around Eastern Europe. The Chechen's haven't given up nor will the native Crimean Tatars who despise what Soviet Russia did to them under Stalin. The other Crimean ethnic groups feel the same way about Russia as do plenty of Russian speakers that are being counted as ethnic Russians -- and for illionth time not all of them are pro-Russia (if Britain declared war on the US would you back the Brits?).
But back to the Russian-speaking population of Crimea 1. they're not all Russians nor are they all pro-Russian (the fact that the newly militarily installed PM of the Russian Unity Party only garnered 4 percent in the 2012 vote should be your clue 2. the only reason Russian-speakers form a slim majority in Crimea is because STALIN PUT THEM THERE and forced the native Crimean Tatars out. The Crimean Tatars who remain in Crimea are related to the Ottomans (aka Modern Turkey which is a NATO nation - look at a map and it will enlighten you). They're also related to Tatars and Turkic people across all of the Baltic states and all of the Russian heartland, including Chechnya. If you don't grasp the significance of that then just imagine terrorists bombing going boom all around Eastern Europe. The Chechen's haven't given up nor will the native Crimean Tatars who despise what Soviet Russia did to them under Stalin. The other Crimean ethnic groups feel the same way about Russia as do plenty of Russian speakers that are being counted as ethnic Russians -- and for illionth time not all of them are pro-Russia (if Britain declared war on the US would you back the Brits?).
This post was edited on 3/2/14 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:13 pm to Prof
And here's some info on your PM:
LINK
LINK
quote:
Sergei Aksyonov, who was hastily voted in as Crimea's prime minister when armed men seized government buildings early Thursday, accused the new central government in Kiev of appointing a new top police officer in the Black Sea peninsula without coordinating with his regional government. "Understanding my responsibility for the lives and security of citizens, I am appealing to Russian President Vladimir Putin to provide assistance in ensuring peace and tranquility in the Crimean Autonomous Republic," he said in the statement.
LINK
quote:
Russian Unity 29343 4,02%
LINK
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:20 pm to Prof
I don't see the EU as being terribly respectful of national sovereignty, either. As voluntary as it is, its sort of a back-door to loss of national identity, and cultural assimilation.
I don't think there's a good course of action for the U.S. here. I find it entertaining watching our govt squirm about it, though. I mean really, what are we going to do? How would we finance a war?
I don't know about their current position, but it seems like China is more sympathetic to Moscow. What if they cut off our credit line with assurances from a hostile Russia to make up some of the difference? We're kinda over a barrel here, and our leaders' words ring hollow. Putin knows it. Our leadership has been reckless over the past couple of decades, and seems to be getting moreso by the day. People hate Congress for good reasons. They're fricking idiots, living in a dream world where consequences are divorced from actions.
I'm not saying I am 100% enjoying the stand-off, but I can't say I take our leadership seriously, nor do I mind seeing them be humiliated by Putin.
I don't think there's a good course of action for the U.S. here. I find it entertaining watching our govt squirm about it, though. I mean really, what are we going to do? How would we finance a war?
I don't know about their current position, but it seems like China is more sympathetic to Moscow. What if they cut off our credit line with assurances from a hostile Russia to make up some of the difference? We're kinda over a barrel here, and our leaders' words ring hollow. Putin knows it. Our leadership has been reckless over the past couple of decades, and seems to be getting moreso by the day. People hate Congress for good reasons. They're fricking idiots, living in a dream world where consequences are divorced from actions.
I'm not saying I am 100% enjoying the stand-off, but I can't say I take our leadership seriously, nor do I mind seeing them be humiliated by Putin.
This post was edited on 3/2/14 at 2:23 pm
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:23 pm to reb13
quote:
Interesting read, Russians hate us and probably understandably. I think there is definitely some war fatigue here in the states and I am personally tired of us trying to govern the whole world.
I don't think the US going to war is even an option at this point. Things would have to get very, very, bad before we'd even consider soft military actions like direct aid to fighters and/or training. Thankfully, we're not at that point yet and hopefully things will calm down before it ever reaches that point.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:32 pm to Prof
Russia needs to sit the frick down. End of story.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:39 pm to wmr
If we shut the frick up, bring our military back home and mind our own business, nothing will happen to us. The US in 2014 is way different than the US in 1941 militarily speaking. Nobody is stupid enough to attack us and bring us into an all out conflict. Especially Putin.
Putin isn't an idiot. He knows how much he can do without facing outside forces and it's a lot.
Putin isn't an idiot. He knows how much he can do without facing outside forces and it's a lot.
This post was edited on 3/2/14 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:41 pm to wmr
You might enjoy seeing this. It's a legit image/piece of Russian propaganda that's circulating Russian news sites and social media as well as those same places in Eastern Europe. The guy with the funny haircut is supposed to be a Cossack (ethnic group).
The Russian title for this is something like "the hard choice" or "difficult choice" and is showing what the West offers versus Russia (it's pretty hilarious both because Russia is portraying them all as Cossacks and because, well just look at the choice between the West vs. Mother Russia
):
LINK
The Russian title for this is something like "the hard choice" or "difficult choice" and is showing what the West offers versus Russia (it's pretty hilarious both because Russia is portraying them all as Cossacks and because, well just look at the choice between the West vs. Mother Russia
): LINK
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:43 pm to Prof
I honestly think Russia still doesn't like Germany and it's not hard to understand why.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 2:57 pm to Prof
I think Russians just plain see Crimea as theirs, no matter what Ukraine's current/historic borders, or the linguistic and ethnic makeup there. They've had a presence in Crimea since the Czars and paid a heavy price in blood for that piece of real estate in WWII. It is a strategic spot for them. No surprise then that they will go to great lengths to keep control of it. Difficult to deter someone who has that kind of perspective about the place.
Kind of like how Metropolitan France used to see Algeria. Not a contiguous territory, but important to their state's identity.
Kind of like how Metropolitan France used to see Algeria. Not a contiguous territory, but important to their state's identity.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 3:03 pm to Henry Jones Jr
They don't. At all.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 3:08 pm to Rebelgator
quote:
Russia needs to sit the frick down. End of story.
I agree.
Russia should just sit back as the western banking block bends Ukraine over.
Russia should just kick their feet up and relax while the west does what it wants.
Posted on 3/2/14 at 3:17 pm to Sleeping Tiger
If some of y'all like Russia better than the USA, then please take your arse to Russia. fricking commies
Posted on 3/2/14 at 3:17 pm to Sleeping Tiger
You are consistent with your schtick, I'll give you that
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