tigger1
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Message
To give an idea on how things play out in Washington DC, here is just part of how a message is built:
Stimson himself drafted the first sentence of the dispatch. As originally written the first sentence read, Negotiations with Japan have been terminated." This was softened after Stimson consulted Secretary Hull by phone. As revised, it read, Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government might come and offer to continue." The next sentence, "Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action is possible at any moment," was put in by Gerow or Bundy.
The next gives how the President wants this to play out,,,,
Stimson himself drafted the first sentence of the dispatch. As originally written the first sentence read, Negotiations with Japan have been terminated." This was softened after Stimson consulted Secretary Hull by phone. As revised, it read, Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government might come and offer to continue." The next sentence, "Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action is possible at any moment," was put in by Gerow or Bundy.
The next gives how the President wants this to play out,,,,
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re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/15/25 at 9:19 am to GetmorewithLes
Briefings
1st everyone is leaving off the briefings
a. Briefings are held on the Japanese responses to the US embargos.
1. In those briefings it was told the Japanese would likely go to war and that the war would begin with no war declaration or only a within a few hours of one.
a. The history of Japanese wars in the past was brought up in these briefings and that history is full of no war declaration before using surprise attacks.
No one brought up the key 3 events that Kimmel either asked about or was never told about.
1st The British attack on Taranto on 11/12 November 1940.
a. The question came up about the depth of the harbor, and Kimmel was told 60 feet.
b. Not told was the British had modified their torpedoes to be able to attack the Italian ships as the harbor depth was less than 60 feet were the key ships are anchored,
c. This is the start of the idea for the Japanese attack on Peral Harbor.
2nd the bomb plot message.
a. The key message is never given to Kimmel or Short.
b. The spy was ordered to plot all ships coming in and out of Peral and where they are docked.
c. That spy is even updating the docking even on Dec 6 evening and the information is being send to the Fleet on the way to Peral, the whole trip.
d. The Japanese knew the Carriers are away from Peral before takeoff Sunday morning due to this information.
3rd The evening of Dec. 6 FDR is given the 13-part document and knows war is coming.
a. This is not confirmed until late 1947, as the personal aid does not testify until second investigation.
b. FDR is said to have tried to call about this that evening, but the person was not home.
1st everyone is leaving off the briefings
a. Briefings are held on the Japanese responses to the US embargos.
1. In those briefings it was told the Japanese would likely go to war and that the war would begin with no war declaration or only a within a few hours of one.
a. The history of Japanese wars in the past was brought up in these briefings and that history is full of no war declaration before using surprise attacks.
No one brought up the key 3 events that Kimmel either asked about or was never told about.
1st The British attack on Taranto on 11/12 November 1940.
a. The question came up about the depth of the harbor, and Kimmel was told 60 feet.
b. Not told was the British had modified their torpedoes to be able to attack the Italian ships as the harbor depth was less than 60 feet were the key ships are anchored,
c. This is the start of the idea for the Japanese attack on Peral Harbor.
2nd the bomb plot message.
a. The key message is never given to Kimmel or Short.
b. The spy was ordered to plot all ships coming in and out of Peral and where they are docked.
c. That spy is even updating the docking even on Dec 6 evening and the information is being send to the Fleet on the way to Peral, the whole trip.
d. The Japanese knew the Carriers are away from Peral before takeoff Sunday morning due to this information.
3rd The evening of Dec. 6 FDR is given the 13-part document and knows war is coming.
a. This is not confirmed until late 1947, as the personal aid does not testify until second investigation.
b. FDR is said to have tried to call about this that evening, but the person was not home.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 10:19 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Even I do not know what he is trying to say in that post.
Are you saying Doug should not have been getting the magic interceptions or that Kimmel and Short should have gotten the messages also?
Or should have Admiral James O. Richardson received them also?
This goes to why Admiral Turner thought Admiral Kimmel was getting the magic interceptions. Which later had to be corrected.
I like reading on how they came up with the messages to send out from Magic and the kind of like fighting over the wording of the message.
Also War Warning message is not a phase in use at the time, and it confused many reading the message vs the heading, this was in the testimony at the time.
Are you saying Doug should not have been getting the magic interceptions or that Kimmel and Short should have gotten the messages also?
Or should have Admiral James O. Richardson received them also?
This goes to why Admiral Turner thought Admiral Kimmel was getting the magic interceptions. Which later had to be corrected.
I like reading on how they came up with the messages to send out from Magic and the kind of like fighting over the wording of the message.
Also War Warning message is not a phase in use at the time, and it confused many reading the message vs the heading, this was in the testimony at the time.
I thought it was a total disaster after the first 15 minutes and has gone way downhill since.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 6:57 pm to Harry Boutte
Harry Boutten you're looking at the attack with 20/20 hindsight not from the time of the event.
Remember in 1939 the people in the US wanted to stay out of the war in Europe, there is very little thought of a war with Japan in 1939.
I have to remind people all the time how the civil War started, not like they are taught in school.
Move on to new points, the debate is getting into a he said, she said.
I have debate with major authors on Isandlwana, the Little Big Horn, Midway, Peral Harbor etc. and never has it broke down to this circle or he said, she said.
Take time and fine another point or learn much more to the lead up to events and the post events.
Remember in 1939 the people in the US wanted to stay out of the war in Europe, there is very little thought of a war with Japan in 1939.
I have to remind people all the time how the civil War started, not like they are taught in school.
Move on to new points, the debate is getting into a he said, she said.
I have debate with major authors on Isandlwana, the Little Big Horn, Midway, Peral Harbor etc. and never has it broke down to this circle or he said, she said.
Take time and fine another point or learn much more to the lead up to events and the post events.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 6:19 pm to Harry Boutte
Just pray you don't get into the Battle on the LIttle BIg Horn.
I have hundreds of books on WWII, many in German, Russian and Japanese and many of them autographed,
The debate on the LIttle BIg Horn can get really hot and heavy.
I collect autograph copies of all the books on that battle.
But back on subject debate is fine.
Some add to the subject other get stuck in a circle.
Answer questions when asked, so it can be gauged the knowledge one has on a subject, do not harp on one point, when you do not answer questions.
I have hundreds of books on WWII, many in German, Russian and Japanese and many of them autographed,
The debate on the LIttle BIg Horn can get really hot and heavy.
I collect autograph copies of all the books on that battle.
But back on subject debate is fine.
Some add to the subject other get stuck in a circle.
Answer questions when asked, so it can be gauged the knowledge one has on a subject, do not harp on one point, when you do not answer questions.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 2:58 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Toomer Deplorable
It is the shipping the Japanese planners did not take into account.
There is a short fall of over 6.5 million metric tons of shipping to start.
The Japanese had to use shipping for these invasions and supply support.
They are so far behind by March of 1942, many of their commands are on their on for weeks on end with no supplies.
Many commands had to grow they're on food.
This was why the rush in early 1942 to build 100 supply and support ships.
Nimitz hit on the right key to win the war at the start, sink the shipping.
It is the shipping the Japanese planners did not take into account.
There is a short fall of over 6.5 million metric tons of shipping to start.
The Japanese had to use shipping for these invasions and supply support.
They are so far behind by March of 1942, many of their commands are on their on for weeks on end with no supplies.
Many commands had to grow they're on food.
This was why the rush in early 1942 to build 100 supply and support ships.
Nimitz hit on the right key to win the war at the start, sink the shipping.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 2:49 pm to Harry Boutte
Harry Boutte to give you some hope the Marine Corps even going into the 1990's hated Doug.
This is due to the total waste of manpower and blood in the Battle of Peleliu/
They tried to get the operation cancelled three days before the landing.
This operation was to cover the flank of Doug's attack towards the Philippines. This island like the Philippines' could have been bypassed.
And I Knew many a Marine who fought in this meat grinder of a battle, including Snafu from the Pacific, none of them would have given a dime to him.
This is due to the total waste of manpower and blood in the Battle of Peleliu/
They tried to get the operation cancelled three days before the landing.
This operation was to cover the flank of Doug's attack towards the Philippines. This island like the Philippines' could have been bypassed.
And I Knew many a Marine who fought in this meat grinder of a battle, including Snafu from the Pacific, none of them would have given a dime to him.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/13/25 at 1:24 pm to Harry Boutte
Harry Boutte I knew many soldiers in the Philippians in 1941, and they all blamed MacArthur.
One of the Marines I Knew was over 102 when he passed away about 12 years ago, he bought up the same question they all did, why are our aircraft on the field long after Peral was attack.
He was General Wainwright's bodyguard before the war and just before the outbreak of the war was stationed in Manila. He saw action on Corregidor and was on the point of one leg of the Japanese invasion. There is a book on him written by his son.
Dug out Doug didn't get that name for no reason and MacArthur combat style and tactics on the Philippines would have gotten any general fired.
Remember Doug gets all the magic interceptions in the Philippines before the war starts.
None of the soldiers I knew from WWII had a high opinion of him.
One of the Marines I Knew was over 102 when he passed away about 12 years ago, he bought up the same question they all did, why are our aircraft on the field long after Peral was attack.
He was General Wainwright's bodyguard before the war and just before the outbreak of the war was stationed in Manila. He saw action on Corregidor and was on the point of one leg of the Japanese invasion. There is a book on him written by his son.
Dug out Doug didn't get that name for no reason and MacArthur combat style and tactics on the Philippines would have gotten any general fired.
Remember Doug gets all the magic interceptions in the Philippines before the war starts.
None of the soldiers I knew from WWII had a high opinion of him.
The factors that force the Japanese into war which have not been covered:
1st religion, the code of bushido, in that code you cannot lose face.
a. There is no backing down.
b. You cannot betray the Emperor, your homeland, your job, your family.
1. IF you are seen to backdown, this breaks rule b.
So, the Japanese can never give up land they fought and bleed for and save face.
2nd how much oil was in reserve in Japan in August 1941?
a. It is not much and not even enough to fight to fight an 18-month war.
3rd how much metric tons of shipping a year does it take to keep Japan running on its normal production rate of 1940?
a. And how much steel is needed in August 1941 to complete it fleet building program?
b. Where does the ships come from that fill the shipping needs of Japan come from and the steal?
1. This factors in after the war starts, as the Japanese did not plan this part and have to start a 100-ship building program in 1942 due to the massive, short fall of shipping.
4th How much aluminum does Japan need to build aircraft and where does it come from?
What is the plan and goals of the Peral Harbor raid?
Why did the Japanese plan a short war?
And what date did the plan for the attack on Peral Harbor begin?
1st religion, the code of bushido, in that code you cannot lose face.
a. There is no backing down.
b. You cannot betray the Emperor, your homeland, your job, your family.
1. IF you are seen to backdown, this breaks rule b.
So, the Japanese can never give up land they fought and bleed for and save face.
2nd how much oil was in reserve in Japan in August 1941?
a. It is not much and not even enough to fight to fight an 18-month war.
3rd how much metric tons of shipping a year does it take to keep Japan running on its normal production rate of 1940?
a. And how much steel is needed in August 1941 to complete it fleet building program?
b. Where does the ships come from that fill the shipping needs of Japan come from and the steal?
1. This factors in after the war starts, as the Japanese did not plan this part and have to start a 100-ship building program in 1942 due to the massive, short fall of shipping.
4th How much aluminum does Japan need to build aircraft and where does it come from?
What is the plan and goals of the Peral Harbor raid?
Why did the Japanese plan a short war?
And what date did the plan for the attack on Peral Harbor begin?
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/12/25 at 7:05 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Toomer Deplorable
You did great job!
Right now, i am having to reread a book from 1947/8 on the second investigate.
You need that book.
As we all know a copy of the first investigation runs around 3,000.
You did great job!
Right now, i am having to reread a book from 1947/8 on the second investigate.
You need that book.
As we all know a copy of the first investigation runs around 3,000.
Narax so now I'm only partly lying as i knew about the USS Arizonia?
The is nothing as I did my first report on Peral Harbor in 1969.
So. was Kimmel getting the magic interceptions?
Because in the first investigate it was flat out told by one of the persons (Turner) in charge he was in Nov-Dec 1941, which was found out not to be the truth in the second investigation.
The is nothing as I did my first report on Peral Harbor in 1969.
So. was Kimmel getting the magic interceptions?
Because in the first investigate it was flat out told by one of the persons (Turner) in charge he was in Nov-Dec 1941, which was found out not to be the truth in the second investigation.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/12/25 at 5:49 pm to Toomer Deplorable
On 22 October 1941, during an exercise taking place in heavy fog, the ship was hit in the bow by the Oklahoma. Arizona had been scheduled to depart for Bremerton Navy Yard in November to undergo an overhaul. The accident instead required her to be dry-docked at Pearl Harbor for repairs to the collision damage. As a result, she remained in Hawaii.
Ruane, Michael (6 December 2016). "The USS Arizona wasn't supposed to be at Pearl Harbor, but it became America's most famous battleship". The Washington Post. Retrieved 3 February 2022.
I found this in under 1 minute online and have known of this since 2000 or earlier.
I told many historians of this more than 10 years ago.
I Have detail reports of this event.
Ruane, Michael (6 December 2016). "The USS Arizona wasn't supposed to be at Pearl Harbor, but it became America's most famous battleship". The Washington Post. Retrieved 3 February 2022.
I found this in under 1 minute online and have known of this since 2000 or earlier.
I told many historians of this more than 10 years ago.
I Have detail reports of this event.
re: Does anyone actually want Bryce Underwood now?
Posted by tigger1 on 12/12/25 at 5:25 pm to lsugradman
Michigan poster said, Underwood would have to pay to get out of the nil deal for next year.
The year after he would not.
The year after he would not.
Narax learn to do research!
Go look it up Narax and spend time learning to do research. The Hit on the USS Arizonia by the USS Oklahoma is very easy to find.
The research into the investigations on Peral Harbor is much harder to find and took me near 40 years to run down.
And if you are really good at research, tell me which planes from which Japanese aircraft carrier where to attack which target and why the x height over battleship row on the inside attack groups.
The research into the investigations on Peral Harbor is much harder to find and took me near 40 years to run down.
And if you are really good at research, tell me which planes from which Japanese aircraft carrier where to attack which target and why the x height over battleship row on the inside attack groups.
Naraxour really not good at this history thing? He took the notes after the meeting and it was found out during the second investigation of the attack, which can also be found in the record of the second investigation.
Just say I have looked into Peral Harbor much deeper than most historians. like did you know the USS Arizonia was to be refitted an in dry dock on the west coast already by Dec 7, 1941.
USS Arizonia was hit in rough sea weather on fleet maneuvers 22 October 1941 by the USS Oklahoma. The USS Oklahoma missed the flag signal to turn and hit the USS Arizonia. USS Arizonia was dry-docked at Pearl Harbor for repairs to the collision damage, instead of sailing to the west coast in early Nov. 1941.
Just say I have looked into Peral Harbor much deeper than most historians. like did you know the USS Arizonia was to be refitted an in dry dock on the west coast already by Dec 7, 1941.
USS Arizonia was hit in rough sea weather on fleet maneuvers 22 October 1941 by the USS Oklahoma. The USS Oklahoma missed the flag signal to turn and hit the USS Arizonia. USS Arizonia was dry-docked at Pearl Harbor for repairs to the collision damage, instead of sailing to the west coast in early Nov. 1941.
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted by tigger1 on 12/12/25 at 10:36 am to Toomer Deplorable
Toomer Deplorable
The meeting on NOV 28th is the smoking gun, no minutes of that meeting were kept. In that meeting FDR flat out told Marshall, his sub commander and the 2 Admirals that the US would not strike the first blow and Japan would have to attack first. The US Would not go on full alert, as he wanted the attack to be seen as a surprise attack. No one was to keep any notes of this meeting, but the one person did, and it came out in a book in 1947/8.
SHORT failed to do his job, that job was to protect the fleet, and he did not deploy his AA guns to Peral Harbor. he spent months readying for an invasion of the island.
FDR knew Peral Harbor was a key target and he ordered the fleet out to Peral knowing it put the fleet in harm's way, against the advice of more than few admirals. THE US had wargame out an attack on Peral Harbor more than once before WWII. THE Japanese studied our wargames before planning their attack, out of the north on a Sunday morning.
No clear warning was given, yet the US Knew the Japanese navy had changed their operations code twice in 3 months before dec 7th, the US also had no clear information on where the 6 fleet carriers were in mid-November 1941, the Japanese also changed the code number for every ship in the fleet in November 1941,
THE US knew the Japanese navy had a number of operations on the move in late November 1941; this includes the fleet headed to invade north of Singapore.
The meeting on NOV 28th is the smoking gun, no minutes of that meeting were kept. In that meeting FDR flat out told Marshall, his sub commander and the 2 Admirals that the US would not strike the first blow and Japan would have to attack first. The US Would not go on full alert, as he wanted the attack to be seen as a surprise attack. No one was to keep any notes of this meeting, but the one person did, and it came out in a book in 1947/8.
SHORT failed to do his job, that job was to protect the fleet, and he did not deploy his AA guns to Peral Harbor. he spent months readying for an invasion of the island.
FDR knew Peral Harbor was a key target and he ordered the fleet out to Peral knowing it put the fleet in harm's way, against the advice of more than few admirals. THE US had wargame out an attack on Peral Harbor more than once before WWII. THE Japanese studied our wargames before planning their attack, out of the north on a Sunday morning.
No clear warning was given, yet the US Knew the Japanese navy had changed their operations code twice in 3 months before dec 7th, the US also had no clear information on where the 6 fleet carriers were in mid-November 1941, the Japanese also changed the code number for every ship in the fleet in November 1941,
THE US knew the Japanese navy had a number of operations on the move in late November 1941; this includes the fleet headed to invade north of Singapore.
re: Bryce Underwood ?
Posted by tigger1 on 12/10/25 at 4:02 pm to DiehardLSUZach
Word is the money man does not want to spend the money used this season for Bryce.
So, Bryce could end up at another school.
So, Bryce could end up at another school.
The defense of St. Elmo alone would make a great series. St. Elmo is the fort across the bay, were the defenders died to the last man.
Then the main siege really starts and it is epic.
Then the main siege really starts and it is epic.
Seen every one of his movies, the best;
Seven Samurai
The underrated.
The Hidden Fortress
this is the movie Star Wars is based on.
Seven Samurai
The underrated.
The Hidden Fortress
this is the movie Star Wars is based on.
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