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AshLSU,
I agree that it is egocentric to think that we can fully understand an omnipotent, omniscient God as described in the Bible. But when it comes to Christianity in particular--we believe that we can understand thing about God for the following reasons.
1. We believe Jesus existed. Almost all reputable scholars agree that Jesus was an actual person that actually lived and breathed and walked on this earth
2. We know that Jesus affirmed the veracity and authenticity of Old Testament scriptures. We also know jesus claimed to be God and taught various things about God.
3. So, if we know Jesus was an actual person we have to decide for ourselves in light of all the evidence that we have if he is who he said he is and if what he (and scripture) has told us about God are true and factual. As C.S. Lewis put it:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God."
I spoke to your question about what created God in my previous post.
I agree that it is egocentric to think that we can fully understand an omnipotent, omniscient God as described in the Bible. But when it comes to Christianity in particular--we believe that we can understand thing about God for the following reasons.
1. We believe Jesus existed. Almost all reputable scholars agree that Jesus was an actual person that actually lived and breathed and walked on this earth
2. We know that Jesus affirmed the veracity and authenticity of Old Testament scriptures. We also know jesus claimed to be God and taught various things about God.
3. So, if we know Jesus was an actual person we have to decide for ourselves in light of all the evidence that we have if he is who he said he is and if what he (and scripture) has told us about God are true and factual. As C.S. Lewis put it:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God."
I spoke to your question about what created God in my previous post.
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No Christian that I know of has ever claimed that God "created himself out of nothing". The Christian position would be that God has always existed. He then created a world in which there are certain rules or laws that govern it. The laws which we observe in this world don't apply to God like they do to us. God is over and above and outside of the physical laws that govern our existence. Just because we observe nature and see that things don't just pop into being doesn't mean that the same rules that prevent this from happening also apply to the Creator. The fact that I cannot understand everything about God and can't wrap my mind around how God could have always been in existence doesn't scare me. If there is a truly omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing Creator such as the God described in the Bible then it would follow that there will be many things about him that I am unable to comprehend.
I don't know what "living life as though it were meaningless would look like" and since you are the one that posed the question, I'm assuming you don't either. Perhaps the reason we can't even visualize this is because no one who's ever lived has truly lived as if life were meaningless, and in my opinion that is even more evidence that we were created by God. The concepts of meaning and purpose are so deep inside of us that we cannot even fathom someone taking an atheist at his word and genuinely living as if we are all here by chance and nothing that we do matters in the slightest. You and I both think "everybody makes their own 'meaning' in life" and I think it is more plausible to assume that we do that because that is the way God made us because if we are just a product of chance and evolutionary processes then the concepts of love and honesty and fairness do not matter and we should only be concerned with our own survival.
I don't know what "living life as though it were meaningless would look like" and since you are the one that posed the question, I'm assuming you don't either. Perhaps the reason we can't even visualize this is because no one who's ever lived has truly lived as if life were meaningless, and in my opinion that is even more evidence that we were created by God. The concepts of meaning and purpose are so deep inside of us that we cannot even fathom someone taking an atheist at his word and genuinely living as if we are all here by chance and nothing that we do matters in the slightest. You and I both think "everybody makes their own 'meaning' in life" and I think it is more plausible to assume that we do that because that is the way God made us because if we are just a product of chance and evolutionary processes then the concepts of love and honesty and fairness do not matter and we should only be concerned with our own survival.
AshLSU,
Logic alone would lead most people to the conclusion that this world was produced by a creator. I am not trying to be a smart alec. I am just being honest with you. Many people see the order in the natural world and the harmony and intricacies of how things work and the only logical conclusion that flows from the observance of these things is that there is a creator behind all of this.
Furthermore, the large majority of people feel the desire to "be somebody" or "make a difference" or "make their life count"-- use whatever phrase or terminology you want, you get the picture. Most people in fact live as if life matters. Most people (even most atheists) don't live as if life is meaningless. If we all are here today merely by chance, I'm not sure I understand why we care so much about honesty and justice and fairness and making sure we "make a name for ourselves" in our careers or hobbies, etc.
Many people feel the tension in their lives of unmet desires. They feel the tension of wanting happiness and not being able to find it. They have experienced the let down that inevitably occurs when they place their ultimate hope in their hobby or their money or sex or marriage or anything besides God. C.S. Lewis once said: “If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.”
As far as I understand it, science can only test things that can be duplicated and therefore science will never be able to prove how something can be created from nothing. Science can not create a repeatable test showing how cells can just randomly appear and then transform first into tadpoles and then into every other living creature that we observe today.
Logic alone would lead most people to the conclusion that this world was produced by a creator. I am not trying to be a smart alec. I am just being honest with you. Many people see the order in the natural world and the harmony and intricacies of how things work and the only logical conclusion that flows from the observance of these things is that there is a creator behind all of this.
Furthermore, the large majority of people feel the desire to "be somebody" or "make a difference" or "make their life count"-- use whatever phrase or terminology you want, you get the picture. Most people in fact live as if life matters. Most people (even most atheists) don't live as if life is meaningless. If we all are here today merely by chance, I'm not sure I understand why we care so much about honesty and justice and fairness and making sure we "make a name for ourselves" in our careers or hobbies, etc.
Many people feel the tension in their lives of unmet desires. They feel the tension of wanting happiness and not being able to find it. They have experienced the let down that inevitably occurs when they place their ultimate hope in their hobby or their money or sex or marriage or anything besides God. C.S. Lewis once said: “If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world.”
As far as I understand it, science can only test things that can be duplicated and therefore science will never be able to prove how something can be created from nothing. Science can not create a repeatable test showing how cells can just randomly appear and then transform first into tadpoles and then into every other living creature that we observe today.
re: Question about Freeze and those coaches that wear their faith so openly
Posted by drm185 on 3/9/17 at 4:58 pm to yatesdog38
yatesdog38,
being a good person or in your words following "some basic rules of not being a jackass" will not get you into heaven, though this is commonly preached as if it were the gospel.
Why do you think Jesus, the third person of the trinity, would utterly humiliate himself and become a man and fool around with keeping every commandment and living a sinless life and suffer death on a cross if all it takes for us to enter heaven is "being a good person"? The premise of the bible is that even the best of us are not "good people" at the core and we need a savior. The message is that jesus lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. Jesus was literally forsaken by the Father so that we wouldn't have to be.
being a good person or in your words following "some basic rules of not being a jackass" will not get you into heaven, though this is commonly preached as if it were the gospel.
Why do you think Jesus, the third person of the trinity, would utterly humiliate himself and become a man and fool around with keeping every commandment and living a sinless life and suffer death on a cross if all it takes for us to enter heaven is "being a good person"? The premise of the bible is that even the best of us are not "good people" at the core and we need a savior. The message is that jesus lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. Jesus was literally forsaken by the Father so that we wouldn't have to be.
UAtide11, I can definitely understand your point of view because the world often seems to be cruel and the poor and marginalized often times only seem to get more marginalized.
UAtide11, I don't understand predestination to mean that every single event that has ever happened has been according to God's will. I mean of course you would have to say that if God exists and he is in control then everything that comes to pass (good or bad) is only happening because he is allowing it, but I think that starts to get at God's preceptive will vs his decretive will. God decrees certain things to happen and they come to pass. God also shows his will in various precepts. But these two things are not the same. I don't think most folks who believe in predestination as I laid out believe that God "wills" that people should sin or that people should perish. Of course, God allows things to transpire but I don't think that means that he actively caused the thing in question to happen. I think the traditional understanding of predestination is that God actively intercedes on behalf of his elect (i.e. those he saves) but he leaves the unbelievers in their sin and decides not to intervene. While it sounds harsh, it is not unjust in the slightest and God is the creator so he can certainly do as he pleases with his creation.
I am not familiar with the term determinism. are you saying you believe predestination is determinism?
This thread took a turn from a topic that was being discussed a few pages back. The discussion was on free will. I have a question regarding free will: What do we do about the verses and story lines in the Bible that seem to clearly contradict the concept of free will?
Take for instance Ephesians 2:1-2 "As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." --unless i am looking at it the wrong way, a dead person cannot do anything and has no free will
Jesus describes the process of salvation to Nicodemus in John 3 and says "you must be born again". None of us played any role in our physical birth and it seems that Jesus is clearly saying that the same is true for our spiritual birth. I suppose we could debate what exactly jesus meant by what he said to nicodemus but plain and simple he compares spiritual birth to physical birth and he did that for a reason.
Then take Romans 3:9-20
"For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
in their paths are ruin and misery,
17
and the way of peace they have not known.”
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."
-- These verses say that prior to us being born again, none of us by nature seek after God.
Then you have John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." --This seems to be saying we cannot approach God of our own accord or free will apart from some work of God in us that causes us to want to seek him
Ephesians 2:8-9- " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." faith is described as the "gift" of God. And this verse clearly says we are not saved by works. --so if we exercise our free will and choose to believe and those who remain unbelievers obviously do not, then couldn't you logically make the argument that that would lead to potential grounds for boasting?.
Predestination is a biblical term. It is mentioned in scripture and therefore I think it is worth exploring what it means.
Romans 9:15 quotes God as saying "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Not one human deserves to be saved. We were all born into this world spiritually dead because Adam was a representative for the entire human race and he sinned. Because Adam's sin is credited to all of us and because we all have also sinned, we are guilty in the sight of God. The punishment for sin is spiritual and physical death. It would not be unjust for God to not save a single person. In fact, it would be justice for him to destroy every person who has ever lived and will live and spare no one. The fact that even one person is saved is an act of mercy and grace by God.
As corny and churchy as this sounds, whatever God purposes to do, he does. Jesus says to Lazarus the dead man who is literally in the tomb "Come out" and what happens?...The dead man obeys. Jesus didn't wait for Lazarus to exercise his "free will" or cooperate with him in some way- Jesus commanded and what he commanded happened.
Even if you do believe in "free will", that still doesn't mean God is "fair" towards all men equally. Would you not agree that it is "unfair" that some people are born in America with a church on every corner and some people have been born into remote tribes in South America that never had the opportunity to see scripture in print or hear a sermon? Who determines where people are born and into what circumstances they are born? God does.
God is omnipotent meaning he is all powerful. When he wanted to create the world he spoke it into existence and when he spoke, things obeyed. God did not send his son Jesus who he had been in perfect union with from the beginning of time to come to earth as a human and live the perfect life keeping all the commandments and literally loving everyone he came into contact with perfectly (and loving God the father perfectly) to die on the cross so that he could sit idly by and hope that humans would take advantage of the sacrifice he provided. God purposed to save his people and he went to the cross and accomplished salvation and he effectually calls us out of our spiritual tombs and brings us into life. We are all by nature sinners and if it were up to us we would never choose God. He must initiate things to bring about life in spiritually dead people. This is the only scenario in which God gets all the glory and the sovereignty of God is rightly understood.
Take for instance Ephesians 2:1-2 "As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." --unless i am looking at it the wrong way, a dead person cannot do anything and has no free will
Jesus describes the process of salvation to Nicodemus in John 3 and says "you must be born again". None of us played any role in our physical birth and it seems that Jesus is clearly saying that the same is true for our spiritual birth. I suppose we could debate what exactly jesus meant by what he said to nicodemus but plain and simple he compares spiritual birth to physical birth and he did that for a reason.
Then take Romans 3:9-20
"For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
in their paths are ruin and misery,
17
and the way of peace they have not known.”
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."
-- These verses say that prior to us being born again, none of us by nature seek after God.
Then you have John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." --This seems to be saying we cannot approach God of our own accord or free will apart from some work of God in us that causes us to want to seek him
Ephesians 2:8-9- " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." faith is described as the "gift" of God. And this verse clearly says we are not saved by works. --so if we exercise our free will and choose to believe and those who remain unbelievers obviously do not, then couldn't you logically make the argument that that would lead to potential grounds for boasting?.
Predestination is a biblical term. It is mentioned in scripture and therefore I think it is worth exploring what it means.
Romans 9:15 quotes God as saying "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Not one human deserves to be saved. We were all born into this world spiritually dead because Adam was a representative for the entire human race and he sinned. Because Adam's sin is credited to all of us and because we all have also sinned, we are guilty in the sight of God. The punishment for sin is spiritual and physical death. It would not be unjust for God to not save a single person. In fact, it would be justice for him to destroy every person who has ever lived and will live and spare no one. The fact that even one person is saved is an act of mercy and grace by God.
As corny and churchy as this sounds, whatever God purposes to do, he does. Jesus says to Lazarus the dead man who is literally in the tomb "Come out" and what happens?...The dead man obeys. Jesus didn't wait for Lazarus to exercise his "free will" or cooperate with him in some way- Jesus commanded and what he commanded happened.
Even if you do believe in "free will", that still doesn't mean God is "fair" towards all men equally. Would you not agree that it is "unfair" that some people are born in America with a church on every corner and some people have been born into remote tribes in South America that never had the opportunity to see scripture in print or hear a sermon? Who determines where people are born and into what circumstances they are born? God does.
God is omnipotent meaning he is all powerful. When he wanted to create the world he spoke it into existence and when he spoke, things obeyed. God did not send his son Jesus who he had been in perfect union with from the beginning of time to come to earth as a human and live the perfect life keeping all the commandments and literally loving everyone he came into contact with perfectly (and loving God the father perfectly) to die on the cross so that he could sit idly by and hope that humans would take advantage of the sacrifice he provided. God purposed to save his people and he went to the cross and accomplished salvation and he effectually calls us out of our spiritual tombs and brings us into life. We are all by nature sinners and if it were up to us we would never choose God. He must initiate things to bring about life in spiritually dead people. This is the only scenario in which God gets all the glory and the sovereignty of God is rightly understood.
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