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Okay, still looking for that cannon arm???
Posted on 9/23/12 at 7:59 am
Posted on 9/23/12 at 7:59 am
Seen Manziel live 3 times now. Guy simply cannot throw a long ball that doesn't float. I don't think he has the arm strength for deep balls.
If we don't stretch the field vs LSU & Bama.... our finese running game may not get 50 yards.
If we don't stretch the field vs LSU & Bama.... our finese running game may not get 50 yards.
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Posted on 9/23/12 at 12:01 pm to Tridentds
Manziel's TD to easy was perfectly placed and didn't float at all.
He threw a couple of out routes from across the field that didn't float at all.
Did you really watch the game closely?
He threw a couple of out routes from across the field that didn't float at all.
Did you really watch the game closely?
This post was edited on 9/23/12 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 9/23/12 at 12:44 pm to Tridentds
quote:
Seen Manziel live 3 times now. Guy simply cannot throw a long ball that doesn't float. I don't think he has the arm strength for deep balls.
He doesn't. Kohl Stewart is the future.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 12:56 pm to TeLeFaWx
I think you might be right.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 2:14 pm to Tridentds
quote:
I think you might be right.
4 years of Johnny, and 2 years of Kohl. Really wish Matt Davis could sneak in somewhere because his leadership is off the charts, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 5:06 pm to TeLeFaWx
But I like Swag Davis :(
Posted on 9/23/12 at 5:20 pm to TeLeFaWx
Kohl Stewart will be incredible here. Really hope he doesn't go to the MLB.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 5:59 pm to Smoke Ring
quote:
Manziel's TD to easy was perfectly placed and didn't float at all.
I did watch the game. I was at the game and then watched it this morning.
The best throw he had was just before halftime about 25 yards that went for a 30 yard TD. Ball had some zip. You do realize the longest TD pass he had of 37 yards was actually a 2 yd reception that was run in from 35 out?? You know this right? 2 of the 4 longest receptions through the air were to #8 in the middle of the secondary after coverages were busted, both were around 20 yards and 1 of these was thrown behind the receiver?
If you think he has a great arm, then you are in the minority. If you watched the game as closely as you imply that you did, then you would know the deepest pass he threw ALL NIGHT LONG was the deep route to Evans on the Ags sideline. Evans was wide open and Manziel had time to throw. Ball was thrown and FLOATED so poorly the corner caught up and Evans had to defend to keep it from being intercepted.
Did you watch the game? Do you look at where the ball should be thrown vs where it is caught? I am looking beyond completions. I am looking for balls on the money, caught in stride. I am looking for balls thrown over outside shoulders, not inside where the corner or safety can get to it. I am looking for a pass high enough to take advantage of a 7" height advantage that Evans has. I am looking for a pass that hits Swope in stride instead of him sliding to catch a low ball.
If you think he is Johnny Unitas you are in for a very rude awakening. At least 3 of the passes he threw yesterday would have been interceptions agains LSU or Bama. SC State flatt dropped 2 right in their hands.
I suggest you go watch a replay and think about the coverage and the athletes we will be up against very soon as you watch those passes come in.
This post was edited on 9/23/12 at 6:03 pm
Posted on 9/23/12 at 6:19 pm to Tridentds
I agree. We need to see what happens once we start the meat of our SEC schedule. Johnny may not have a cannon of an arm, but he is just a redshirt freshman. Who is to say that this area of his game might improve in the next 3 years?
He has improved each week in my opinion. We really need to reserve judgment on him until the season is over I think. The team in general has improved over the last 3 games. Less penalties, the defense keeps being consistent, and special teams, not just from a return punt perspective, but from kickoffs etc has been good thus far.
Areas of improvement, of course, the running game, but I think that will improve as well. Our talented linemen are also adjusting to a new scheme. In this offense you don't need to be able to throw it 60 yards in the air. It needs to be quick reads, short passes, screens. Would I like Johnny to throw it deep more? Of course, but he has played well thus far.
He has improved each week in my opinion. We really need to reserve judgment on him until the season is over I think. The team in general has improved over the last 3 games. Less penalties, the defense keeps being consistent, and special teams, not just from a return punt perspective, but from kickoffs etc has been good thus far.
Areas of improvement, of course, the running game, but I think that will improve as well. Our talented linemen are also adjusting to a new scheme. In this offense you don't need to be able to throw it 60 yards in the air. It needs to be quick reads, short passes, screens. Would I like Johnny to throw it deep more? Of course, but he has played well thus far.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 6:42 pm to Palooza11
It's not entirely about arm strength. He doesn't have a rocket arm for sure but he also doesn't have the best mechanics on deep throws. When he tries to put too much on it they float. But when he makes the throws on time like the post to EZ, he shows plenty of arm for this offense.
He will learn to trust it more. You can tell his actual arm strength is not bad when he's throwing across his body and other weird shite he does. The deep ball is about using your whole body in rhythm though and that's a lot easier when you stand in the pocket and deliver rather than shuffling your feet.
His bigger problem right now is staring down the primary until the play develops causing throws to be late. This doesn't give the WR much opportunity to make a play which honestly is one of the foundations of this offense. He's got to read his keys faster and get his throws out on time. It will help with his mechanics and it will make the whole offense seem effortless. I'm almost sure that's what Sumlin was giving him praise for after that post to EZ.
He will learn to trust it more. You can tell his actual arm strength is not bad when he's throwing across his body and other weird shite he does. The deep ball is about using your whole body in rhythm though and that's a lot easier when you stand in the pocket and deliver rather than shuffling your feet.
His bigger problem right now is staring down the primary until the play develops causing throws to be late. This doesn't give the WR much opportunity to make a play which honestly is one of the foundations of this offense. He's got to read his keys faster and get his throws out on time. It will help with his mechanics and it will make the whole offense seem effortless. I'm almost sure that's what Sumlin was giving him praise for after that post to EZ.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 7:05 pm to TeLeFaWx
Kohl will go play baseball, it just is the smarter move. If he goes baseball and it doesn't work out for him, he can alway pull a Weeden.
Kenny Hill should be good too. I would love to see what Davis can do too though.
Kenny Hill should be good too. I would love to see what Davis can do too though.
This post was edited on 9/23/12 at 7:09 pm
Posted on 9/23/12 at 7:29 pm to Tridentds
quote:
If you think he has a great arm, then you are in the minority
Straw man argument. I think he has an effective college arm, with time to grow.
quote:
If you think he is Johnny Unitas you are in for a very rude awakening
C'mon, man. It's his third game. Never said that, and you're setting up a false argument just to knock it down.
Instead, watch this:
Beautiful
More Beauty
As Good a Fade as A&M has thrown in years
Now balance this with a bad throw or two and you've got what Manziel is: a work in progress with amazing potential.
And, remember that by this time last year, our 1st Rounder with a God-touched arm had lost one game due to an untimely turnover and was getting set to lose a couple of more. Johnny hasn't done that. And I hope he keeps making y'all grumpy with his incredible mix of running and passing TDs.
This post was edited on 9/23/12 at 7:38 pm
Posted on 9/23/12 at 8:42 pm to Smoke Ring
I'm with smoke ring.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 9:34 pm to Smoke Ring
That's what so great about this game. We get to find out who knows what they are talking about in a few weeks.
Gigem.
Gigem.
Posted on 9/23/12 at 10:30 pm to Tridentds
Manziel isn't Johnny Unitas, at least with his arm. He isn't Ryan Tannehill with his arm either. He also doesn't need to be unless we are worried about his draft status. Look at a list of some of the greatest college QB's of the last 20 years and you see a lot of average arms. Jason White. Tim Tebow. Charlie Ward. All won Heisman's and NC's and had about the same level of arm or less than Manziel. At A&M we had Kevin Murray before them.
The most important thing Manziel has to do is make great decisions. He has an adequate arm. You simply can't discount what he can do with his legs or his instinctive style of play. He isn't just a 4.4 runner, he is a 4.4 runner that can break ankles but is a true QB. He can throw on the run as well as any QB I have ever seen, especially across his body. He hasn't thrown a pick yet nor has he fumbled the ball in spite of how much he runs.
He isn't perfect or a finished product. I remember sitting at the game yesterday and leaning over to my friend at halftime and saying, "It's a really weird feeling to have scored 49 points in the first half and feel like the offense could have really been much better." Would we score that 49 on Bama? Of course not, that isn't the point. The point is we have a lot of upside and a young QB that while still having a lot to learn has a ceiling through the roof and in the meantime has 11 TD's an 0 Turnovers to his ledger. That's a really nice place to start from.
One thing that amazes me is the folks on the Rant that are most down on Manziel are all Aggies. There are a lot of SEC fans crapping their pants when they see what he can do and they certainly aren't smack talking about stopping him.
The most important thing Manziel has to do is make great decisions. He has an adequate arm. You simply can't discount what he can do with his legs or his instinctive style of play. He isn't just a 4.4 runner, he is a 4.4 runner that can break ankles but is a true QB. He can throw on the run as well as any QB I have ever seen, especially across his body. He hasn't thrown a pick yet nor has he fumbled the ball in spite of how much he runs.
He isn't perfect or a finished product. I remember sitting at the game yesterday and leaning over to my friend at halftime and saying, "It's a really weird feeling to have scored 49 points in the first half and feel like the offense could have really been much better." Would we score that 49 on Bama? Of course not, that isn't the point. The point is we have a lot of upside and a young QB that while still having a lot to learn has a ceiling through the roof and in the meantime has 11 TD's an 0 Turnovers to his ledger. That's a really nice place to start from.
One thing that amazes me is the folks on the Rant that are most down on Manziel are all Aggies. There are a lot of SEC fans crapping their pants when they see what he can do and they certainly aren't smack talking about stopping him.
Posted on 9/24/12 at 3:56 am to Tridentds
quote:
Guy simply cannot throw a long ball that doesn't float. I don't think he has the arm strength for deep balls.
This post was edited on 9/24/12 at 4:05 am
Posted on 9/24/12 at 8:15 am to aggressor
quote:
You simply can't discount what he can do with his legs or his instinctive style of play.
You know, you can over estimate how far legs and instinct will carry you. I didn't say he was a bad quarterback, that would be false. What I said was that against Alabama and LSU, IF he cannot stretch the field, we were going to be in for a looooong day.
You have to remember that his legs and instinct were in fact held to a total of 60 yards in the 2nd half vs Florida.
Can the Ags win 8 games with Manziel? Absolutely. I think the Ags have enough defense to hang with Bama and LSU but ONLY if they don't stay on the field most of the game with a bunch of 3 and outs as happened against FL. 3 and outs are a killer for our D without the depth to rotate guys in and out.
In order for Sumlin's offense to work against SEC elite defenses (FL, Bama, LSU) the deep pass has to be part of the package or everyone compresses into a 15 yard box and the rest of the offense struggles.
Posted on 9/24/12 at 8:17 am to Smoke Ring
He doesn't throw a great deep ball but he can still get it out there. Essentially all that limits him with is throwing into covered WR deep down the field, he is fine up to about 30 yards (as evidenced with his TD strike last game). Manziel is primarily going to throw deep in 2 circumstances, either when he is throwing it to a wide open guy behind the defense when his "floating" passes aren't a big issue (this will happen a lot with as much time as he can buy with his feet) or when he throws "jump" balls to guys like Evans. I just don't see how that is such a huge flaw. Showers throws a beautiful deep ball but he isn't accurate with it and he can't do half of the other things that Manziel does for instance.
I guess I just remember when Bucky was our QB and any pass made you hold your breath and yet those teams were awesome. I'd love it if Manziel could do it all but with a few tweaks to the offense they could make it nearly unstoppable, he is a talent worth working around.
One other thing I haven't heard pointed out on Manziel that is a benefit to his throws is we have had very few drops. Loved Tanny last year but part of the reason we had 60 drops is he threw with a cannon. You could also see that with Showers when he had a dropped pass and 2 passes that went out of bounds partly because the receiver was literally off balance having to catch the ball. As long as Manziel can get it in the right spot where only a maroon jersey can get it his softer touch passes are going to pay dividends. He seems to understand he shouldn't try to thread the needle often which is also important. He can throw a bullet from a proper stance up to 20-25 yards and that's likely going to be enough to work with.
I see the guy's flaws and don't think he is a god but he is a special talent. We don't need Andrew Luck in order to make this offense work, we have enough talent to adjust to it and actually be even more dangerous than a traditional Air Raid.
I guess I just remember when Bucky was our QB and any pass made you hold your breath and yet those teams were awesome. I'd love it if Manziel could do it all but with a few tweaks to the offense they could make it nearly unstoppable, he is a talent worth working around.
One other thing I haven't heard pointed out on Manziel that is a benefit to his throws is we have had very few drops. Loved Tanny last year but part of the reason we had 60 drops is he threw with a cannon. You could also see that with Showers when he had a dropped pass and 2 passes that went out of bounds partly because the receiver was literally off balance having to catch the ball. As long as Manziel can get it in the right spot where only a maroon jersey can get it his softer touch passes are going to pay dividends. He seems to understand he shouldn't try to thread the needle often which is also important. He can throw a bullet from a proper stance up to 20-25 yards and that's likely going to be enough to work with.
I see the guy's flaws and don't think he is a god but he is a special talent. We don't need Andrew Luck in order to make this offense work, we have enough talent to adjust to it and actually be even more dangerous than a traditional Air Raid.
Posted on 9/24/12 at 8:48 am to aggressor
quote:
I guess I just remember when Bucky was our QB and any pass made you hold your breath and yet those teams were awesome. I'd love it if Manziel could do it all but with a few tweaks to the offense they could make it nearly unstoppable, he is a talent worth working around.
I think this is correct. Work being the key word. Johnny needs work, and lots of it, but the reward could be incredible. I am still waiting to hear that he is a hard worker and a great leader. Lot's of people seem to not like him. I heard the offensive line feels like he is selling them out in the games because he abandons the pocket as soon as possible as opposed to practice, and gets super defensive and has gotten in a few arguments with his line as a result.
quote:
One other thing I haven't heard pointed out on Manziel that is a benefit to his throws is we have had very few drops. Loved Tanny last year but part of the reason we had 60 drops is he threw with a cannon.
Fuller alone has a ridiculous amount of drops on screens in the flat, on balls with very little velocity. I think you are sort of making this up.
quote:
We don't need Andrew Luck in order to make this offense work, we have enough talent to adjust to it and actually be even more dangerous than a traditional Air Raid.
Don't think this is true at all. We haven't been able to run the ball, or see Johnny be vertical against a good defense. If we play dink and dunk and tuck and run against good SEC defenses we will get killed. Johnny needs to sit back and sling it, or at least show the ability to, or we won't get anywhere.
Posted on 9/24/12 at 9:08 am to Tridentds
I agree completely that Manziel has to play better than he did against UF in order to beat Bama and LSU. Honestly that really shouldn't be the main concern this year anyway. We are going to need a perfect storm to beat either of those teams this year and even if Tom Brady was our QB I don't know that it would matter. My concern for this year is twofold. Beating the teams NOT named LSU and Bama and showing improvement week to week. If we win 8 games this year that would be a huge accomplishment, especially with the schedule change with La Tech. Next year is next year and if we are improving we will be fine. The only constant in college football is change.
I also think the UF game was a learning experience for Manziel. He showed something that is really important, not to make bad decisions and allow turnovers. Unfortunately he took it too far and stopped playing with the confidence to throw downfield. If he sees TJ when he got behind the defense on one play in the second half we likely win the game. We are still talking about a RS Freshman that was thrown into the fire in a big way. Florida's D abused UT's QB a lot worse than Manziel and that guy is a Jr that is considered a pretty solid NFL prospect.
He does need to throw deep. He just likely needs to do it in the 2 circumstances I mentioned, throw to a wide open WR or throw to a really tall WR like Evans. I really, really hope we can get RSJ btw because of this. If we can put Evans on one side and RSJ on the other how does anyone stop this offense? They can't double cover both of them and they will have at least a 5" height advantage on anyone they are matched up against. If they do put double coverage on both of them or stay back to protect against the deep ball it's all over because you are playing 9 on 7 at that point.
Like I said, it just takes a few tweaks and a bit more talent in the right spots and this offense will be frightening. I really don't think we are a pure Air Raid just because that is what KK and Sumlin did at UH. They didn't have the athletes we have when they were there. With Manziel they have a lot to work with and they have overcome the biggest obstacle imo in terms of him playing under control.
My point on his legs and instinct is not that it is enough but that it is significant. I've never seen a QB with true 4.4 speed that breaks ankles like Manziel. I've never seen one throw across his body to an open receiver that he hits in the numbers with ease like that either. All you had to do was watch Showers (and I like Showers btw, I'm not trying to bag on him) scramble and try to make a play that nearly resulted in a pick 6. Now if Manziel's entire game was his legs and instinct that wouldn't get it done but that isn't the case. He is still making nice throws out of the pocket. He is still progressing through his reads, though not as well as he will need to. He is still throwing deep and with some success. I don't know if they can get his arm much stronger but they can certainly teach him to work through his progressions and understand the offense better. What I know for certain though is you can't teach a player to run like he does or to make those insane throws across his body on the run. That's just pure talent.
BTW, I don't know that Manziel has the job for the next 4 years either. He could get hurt. He could get lazy or stop taking care of the football. He could get beat out by Davis or Stewart next year who both have some talents he doesn't have (Davis with leadership, size, and a stronger arm and Stewart with size, natural fit for the system, and a freakish arm). I don't see Showers or Joekel beating him out though. We also don't know what we may have with Kenny HIll. The future is bright.
I also think the UF game was a learning experience for Manziel. He showed something that is really important, not to make bad decisions and allow turnovers. Unfortunately he took it too far and stopped playing with the confidence to throw downfield. If he sees TJ when he got behind the defense on one play in the second half we likely win the game. We are still talking about a RS Freshman that was thrown into the fire in a big way. Florida's D abused UT's QB a lot worse than Manziel and that guy is a Jr that is considered a pretty solid NFL prospect.
He does need to throw deep. He just likely needs to do it in the 2 circumstances I mentioned, throw to a wide open WR or throw to a really tall WR like Evans. I really, really hope we can get RSJ btw because of this. If we can put Evans on one side and RSJ on the other how does anyone stop this offense? They can't double cover both of them and they will have at least a 5" height advantage on anyone they are matched up against. If they do put double coverage on both of them or stay back to protect against the deep ball it's all over because you are playing 9 on 7 at that point.
Like I said, it just takes a few tweaks and a bit more talent in the right spots and this offense will be frightening. I really don't think we are a pure Air Raid just because that is what KK and Sumlin did at UH. They didn't have the athletes we have when they were there. With Manziel they have a lot to work with and they have overcome the biggest obstacle imo in terms of him playing under control.
My point on his legs and instinct is not that it is enough but that it is significant. I've never seen a QB with true 4.4 speed that breaks ankles like Manziel. I've never seen one throw across his body to an open receiver that he hits in the numbers with ease like that either. All you had to do was watch Showers (and I like Showers btw, I'm not trying to bag on him) scramble and try to make a play that nearly resulted in a pick 6. Now if Manziel's entire game was his legs and instinct that wouldn't get it done but that isn't the case. He is still making nice throws out of the pocket. He is still progressing through his reads, though not as well as he will need to. He is still throwing deep and with some success. I don't know if they can get his arm much stronger but they can certainly teach him to work through his progressions and understand the offense better. What I know for certain though is you can't teach a player to run like he does or to make those insane throws across his body on the run. That's just pure talent.
BTW, I don't know that Manziel has the job for the next 4 years either. He could get hurt. He could get lazy or stop taking care of the football. He could get beat out by Davis or Stewart next year who both have some talents he doesn't have (Davis with leadership, size, and a stronger arm and Stewart with size, natural fit for the system, and a freakish arm). I don't see Showers or Joekel beating him out though. We also don't know what we may have with Kenny HIll. The future is bright.
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