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re: Chips are down: Is NIL regulation = socialism?
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:52 pm to CaliHorn
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:52 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
Correct.
You *are* entitled to a free market to bargain for a wage for your services for lawful work though!
You just going to keep repeating the same points I've proven wrong in a loop?
They 100% bargained. Nobody forced them to accept the offers. The other party is free to set it's own standards and reject. Bargaining doesn't mean - give me whatever I want.
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Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:52 pm to 3down10
quote:
What about the military? Can I sue them since they wouldn't let me bargin for my salary and they had a monopoly on me shooting other people with large caliber weapons legally? Hell, if I broke it down by the hour, during basic I didn't even make minimum wage either.
Is your question seriously why doesn’t the Sherman Act apply to the US military?
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:53 pm to 3down10
If you think you’re proving me wrong, you should definitely offer your services as counsel or an expert to the NCAA in court.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:56 pm to Quicksilver
quote:
I suspect the schools will disembark from the NCAA very soon actually, at least in football. The market around CFB evolved dramatically and quickly the last two decades with it becoming such a profitable sport for TV networks. The business model the NCAA simply doesn't make sense in the scope of modern college football.
I think a big part of the conference stuff is likely geared towards the top 30-60 teams breaking off and forming their own thing. That's really where most of the issues are coming from, you have rules that are being made to apply to over 850 different schools and they need to fit the bottom guy as well as the top guy.
It'll turn into a mini NFL. I'm not sure I'm going to like it, I already don't watch the NFL. The playoffs are already stepping it up and all this talk about "AQ spots etc".
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:58 pm to 3down10
quote:
They 100% bargained. Nobody forced them to accept the offers. The other party is free to set it's own standards and reject. Bargaining doesn't mean - give me whatever I want.
It’s totally true your employer/potential employer has a right to decline your offer. On an individual basis.
However! If multiple employers in an industry agree on the terms on whichever they will bargain with you for your services, that is an agreement in restraint of trade.
This is antitrust 101 stuff.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 4:58 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
Is your question seriously why doesn’t the Sherman Act apply to the US military?
There wasn't really a question there. I know why, and yet millions of people still volunteer.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:01 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
It’s totally true your employer/potential employer has a right to decline your offer. On an individual basis.
However! If multiple employers in an industry agree on the terms on whichever they will bargain with you for your services, that is an agreement in restraint of trade.
This is antitrust 101 stuff.
They aren't employers. If they start paying them, then they are employees and they will be taxed and so on.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:04 pm to 3down10
Great points made, 3/10.
You have great patience
You have great patience
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:05 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
If you think you’re proving me wrong, you should definitely offer your services as counsel or an expert to the NCAA in court.
Once again, court cases are overturned constantly, so I'm not sure what your point is. It all depends on the arguments being made, and when/how they are allowed to make them. I'd never want to be a lawyer, the rules and the way they are limited is ridiculous. I know right and wrong, I don't give a shite about procedure or anything else.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:05 pm to 3down10
They don’t have to be employees. It’s still interstate commerce and the players still have a trade.
If they didn’t…none of them would make a dime off NIL.
If they didn’t…none of them would make a dime off NIL.
This post was edited on 6/14/25 at 5:06 pm
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:11 pm to 3down10
The NCAA thinks nothing of its own legal argument here.
It’s totally true that Congress could act to provide an antitrust exemption for the NCAA or some other successor organization. That would be a change in law though. An exemption that doesn’t currently exist.
If you believe that’s right as a policy matter, you can argue that. I’m not arguing that with you. I’m telling you what courts, economists and experts are all telling everyone: the law as applied to the NCAA invalidates a lot of the rules of the organization.
If we ran into a situation where we ultimately had collective bargaining, etc this could all also change there. But we don’t have that. And I think we’re not likely to.
It’s totally true that Congress could act to provide an antitrust exemption for the NCAA or some other successor organization. That would be a change in law though. An exemption that doesn’t currently exist.
If you believe that’s right as a policy matter, you can argue that. I’m not arguing that with you. I’m telling you what courts, economists and experts are all telling everyone: the law as applied to the NCAA invalidates a lot of the rules of the organization.
If we ran into a situation where we ultimately had collective bargaining, etc this could all also change there. But we don’t have that. And I think we’re not likely to.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:15 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
They don’t have to be employees. It’s still interstate commerce and the players still have a trade.
If they didn’t…none of them would make a dime off NIL.
Again, nobody has ever prevented a single person from earning NIL money. All they can do is prevent them from playing in sports.
Manziel for example would not have been arrested, faced any criminal or civil charges for getting those autographs. The NCAA has no enforcement, they don't even have the ability to make people talk to them/testify in an investigation.
The only thing they could do is prevent Manziel from playing sports after.
So when you say things like the NCAA prevented them from earning NIL money it's just false.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:17 pm to 3down10
You just described a restraint. Manziel’s NIL value is derived from his talent. His talent is playing football.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:22 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
The NCAA thinks nothing of its own legal argument here.
It’s totally true that Congress could act to provide an antitrust exemption for the NCAA or some other successor organization. That would be a change in law though. An exemption that doesn’t currently exist.
If you believe that’s right as a policy matter, you can argue that. I’m not arguing that with you. I’m telling you what courts, economists and experts are all telling everyone: the law as applied to the NCAA invalidates a lot of the rules of the organization.
If we ran into a situation where we ultimately had collective bargaining, etc this could all also change there. But we don’t have that. And I think we’re not likely to.
You're just making an appeal to authority fallacy here. I'm obviously aware of the rulings. That only decide what people are forced to follow for the time. They get overturned all the time when better arguments, which often form from different circumstances come about. I have no idea when it will happen. It will likely form if the NCAA ever grew some balls and fought back.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:26 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
You just described a restraint. Manziel’s NIL value is derived from his talent. His talent is playing football.
No I described a standard.
When I was offered academic scholarships I had all kinds of standards I was expected to meet. Grades, credits, etc. If I didn't keep those standards, the scholarships wouldn't be extended.
Beyond that, you are merely highlighting his NIL value was solely because of his ties to the school. Thus in no way is the school preventing him from his actual worth.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:30 pm to 3down10
quote:
You're just making an appeal to authority fallacy here. I'm obviously aware of the rulings. That only decide what people are forced to follow for the time. They get overturned all the time when better arguments, which often form from different circumstances come about. I have no idea when it will happen. It will likely form if the NCAA ever grew some balls and fought back.
Maybe we’re talking past each other: I’m not arguing policy, really. I’m not really making a normative argument. I’m telling you that under existing law the NCAA is in trouble.
As a normative matter, I believe this is an industry that is screaming for some regulation. But that’s not all about NIL.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:36 pm to 3down10
quote:
When I was offered academic scholarships I had all kinds of standards I was expected to meet. Grades, credits, etc. If I didn't keep those standards, the scholarships wouldn't be extended.
Okay, so let’s break this down!
What you are describing is the process of an individual school or scholarship setting a standard.
If you and I want to bargain with each other, we can.
Where you get into trouble is where, in interstate commerce, multiple institutions band together to agree on how they will bargain with you.
Now, within that there’s also a rule of reason that governs legality. But what you described doesn’t even get there.
Again: your individual employer setting terms and conditions on what it will offer is one thing. A group of employers all agreeing what they will offer individually is another.
At this point the NCAA knows it is cooked on this under the law.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:38 pm to 3down10
quote:
Beyond that, you are merely highlighting his NIL value was solely because of his ties to the school. Thus in no way is the school preventing him from his actual worth.
That’s not true though. If it was ever Aggie would have a huge NIL deal.
Posted on 6/14/25 at 5:43 pm to CaliHorn
quote:
If they start paying them, then they are employees and they will be taxed and so on.
Athletes earning NIL are subject to income taxes
Posted on 6/14/25 at 6:12 pm to CaliHorn
IF Universities and Colleges decide they don't want to give scholarships or admission to professional athletes, they can stop.
And then what happens to NIL and pay for play??
And then what happens to NIL and pay for play??
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