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re: Can our prayers help people who might be, or probably are, in "purgatory", or "torment"?
Posted on 8/10/22 at 2:43 pm to paperwasp
Posted on 8/10/22 at 2:43 pm to paperwasp
quote:
HRV I have so many questions.
If prayer does not change God's will but instead changes our hearts, how would this prayer help souls in purgatory? Are we saying that we are praying for their souls to repent before judgement?
If the dead "sleep" until the resurrection and judgment, where are they now (from a Protestant perspective)? If time in this instance does not exist, are they thus both simultaneously asleep and resurrected? Are the believing dead already conscious in God's presence even though the resurrection hasn't happened?
I'm sorry. Sometimes I can't turn my brain off, and these are the types of things I ponder.
my first answer: I don't know
my second answer: from people with Downs Syndrome all the way "up" to people with PdD's in astrophysics, in between are a large group of poeple who are just not smart, or mentally ill.
Not smart people, and mentally ill people, at whatever level God decides, I don't think they can be held accountable.
Plus, normal hard headed people misinterpret scripture because they were brainwashed at age 7. Okay, so we're forgiven of sin. Are we not also forgiven of misinterpreting some scripture? If we tried? If our heart was in the right place?
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Posted on 8/10/22 at 2:47 pm to kywildcatfanone
quote:
Just curious where purgatory is mentioned in Scripture?
Thank you for asking this. It reveals my laziness. I don't know. Is purgatory a thing written in by people later?
I would not doubt it.
My take is I differentiate between Paradise and Heaven, so is the opposite of paradise classified as "torment"?
I'll edit the title
Posted on 8/10/22 at 3:27 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
quote:
I love it, what's the link
C.S. Lewis believed in purgatory, for heaven’s sake (Baptist Standard)
Posted on 8/10/22 at 3:35 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
The only thing somewhat similar mentioned in Scripture is when Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Read it and tell us what you think...
quote:
The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [a]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [b]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”
Posted on 8/10/22 at 7:31 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
quote:
Paradise
The standard 101 theological rule to prevent from speculative eisegesis is to not base a doctrine on just one verse. An example would be how Mormonism teaches “baptism on behalf of the dead” from 1 Cor 15:29.
But let me ask you this, if after a long and tumultuous 18 hour layer over, and we’re sitting in the airport I said I can’t wait to get back to my crib, would you think I literally meant I slept in a baby crib?
By Hebraic tradition, paradise was always a reference to an Edenic time of communion with Yahweh.
The pre-Reformational period was a tragic centralization of the the church, which preyed upon the uneducated.
This post was edited on 8/10/22 at 8:34 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 7:42 pm to LittleJerrySeinfield
It’s a parabolic allegory. You don’t interpret scripture or ancient literature without the context of the genre. Basic rule of these examples, much like all of Christ’s parables, is “don’t focus on the particulars, but focus on the principles.”
In this case, it’s in a succession of parables followed by directly challenging (through subversion) the Pharisaic false notion of the law/mercy.
In this case, it’s in a succession of parables followed by directly challenging (through subversion) the Pharisaic false notion of the law/mercy.
This post was edited on 8/10/22 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 8:41 pm to Alyosha
quote:
By Hebraic tradition, paradise was always a reference to an Edenic time of communion with Yahweh.
Whereas in classic Judaism dead meant dead, and then suddenly the postexilic concept of Sheol was frighteningly vague.
quote:
Pharisaic false notion
Some liberal Pharisees even preached a type of reincarnation, where a soul could pass into another body.
Posted on 8/10/22 at 8:48 pm to paperwasp
Heyyyyyooooo
Paperwasp went to Beason is my guess.
Paperwasp went to Beason is my guess.
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:11 pm to Alyosha
This post was edited on 8/11/22 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:14 pm to Harry Rex Vonner
quote:
Atheists are not allowed
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:17 pm to paperwasp
So it’s true? Are you a student there? You read Peter Leithart?
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:20 pm to Alyosha
This post was edited on 8/11/22 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:25 pm to paperwasp
Dammit, I could drop either of two names and you could find me.
Tell Gerald Bray I said hello, that track suit wearing sunnavahbitch. Last time I saw him, I had to tell him he still had tuna on his face.
Are you Episcopalian by any chance? Reformed? Anglo-catholic?
Tell Gerald Bray I said hello, that track suit wearing sunnavahbitch. Last time I saw him, I had to tell him he still had tuna on his face.
Are you Episcopalian by any chance? Reformed? Anglo-catholic?
This post was edited on 8/10/22 at 9:27 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:42 pm to Alyosha
quote:
A priest buys a lawn mower at a yard sale.
Back home, he pulls on the starter rope a few times with no results.
He storms back to the yard sale and tells the previous owner, “I can’t get the mower to start!”
“That’s because you have to curse to get it started,” says the man.
“I’m a man of the cloth. I don’t even remember how to curse.”
“You keep pulling on that rope, and it’ll come back to you.”
Posted on 8/10/22 at 9:54 pm to paperwasp
So Baptist then.
Posted on 8/10/22 at 10:00 pm to Alyosha
This post was edited on 8/11/22 at 10:22 pm
Posted on 8/10/22 at 10:08 pm to paperwasp
I know, but it sounds like a Baptist joke:)
Posted on 8/10/22 at 10:46 pm to paperwasp
Priest could be catholic, Episcopalian, Greek Orthodox. PL is Presbyterian.
Posted on 8/10/22 at 11:38 pm to paperwasp
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