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sigh, I can see my presence is needed here.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 8:38 pm
Posted on 4/28/14 at 8:38 pm
All you folks flipping out in the Kim Anderson meltdown thread may remember me as the guy who was really reluctant about the Haith resignation and saying I wasn't so sure it was a good thing. MIZ-STL I think was on the same page with me but that was about it. I also said that most of you same fans would be calling for the new coach's head by the end of next year. Turns out I was wrong, took less than a day. That said, when even semo is bailing on Mizzou hoops altogether, I can see this is serious.
Now, I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your arse and say everything will be OK. It may not be. We will hopefully know within the next 48 hours if Fuller will stay on as an assistant or not. If not, an already fairly barren roster may really go straight to hell. But even if he does, and no matter who the coach was next year - Marshall, Howland, Coach K, Phil Jackson, anybody - next year was always going to be a struggle. I can see that message is already lost. Now, next year will be a struggle because Kim Anderson sucks and Mike Alden sucks. It's kinda sad that you guys are so easy to predict, but admit it, that's what you're going to be saying cuz you're already decided it.
BUT...speaking of Phil Jackson. If you want something, anything to be fairly excited about, to buy into this "well it worked with Bo Ryan at Wisconsin" stuff...I'd offer you this. Especially you younger folks who don't know who KA was and may not even remember the Michael Jordan years. But I damn well know all of you remember the Kobe Bryant/Shaq Laker years, ain't nobody on this board THAT young who doesn't at least remember that.
Well that triangle offense that the Lakers won 5 championships with that Phil Jackson ran and Tex Winter designed that everyone always talked about? You know that one? Mizzou is gonna be running that triangle offense now folks. Yep. That's what Norm Stewart's teams ran back in the day, what the 1994 team everyone loves ran, and its what Anderson has been winning at CMU with. And the things that make it so effective - constant player movement away from the ball as well as ball movement, excellent spacing, all five players involved rather than clearing out for one or two ballhogs and letting them do everything - all the stuff you all said you HATED about the last two years under Haith and wanted fixed? This system fixes that. Automatically. Tired of a ballhogging point guard dribbling the ball up top and taking a head down drive to the basket while 4 other guys stand around? Hell the new Mizzou offense barely even HAS a point guard. All 5 players are expected to be able to shoot, pass, make reads, cut with equal opportunity and in unison.
Now I'm no expert, but in terms of recruiting on a national scale, whether its Fuller or somebody else, the one thing I do is play up this offense. "Hey kid, remember growing up watching Kobe? Ever want to be him? We run the very same offense that Kobe won all his championships with here at Mizzou. Same offense Michael Jordan ran too. Calipari says he'll get you ready to play in the NBA. We'll get you ready to be an NBA *champion*."
Maybe I am just blowing sunshine up your asses. Maybe these happy thoughts are too happy. But I'm excited to run the triangle again at Mizzou. It's true team basketball, and when executed properly, the go to guy is the open man. That's a foundation. Let's build on it.
Now, I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your arse and say everything will be OK. It may not be. We will hopefully know within the next 48 hours if Fuller will stay on as an assistant or not. If not, an already fairly barren roster may really go straight to hell. But even if he does, and no matter who the coach was next year - Marshall, Howland, Coach K, Phil Jackson, anybody - next year was always going to be a struggle. I can see that message is already lost. Now, next year will be a struggle because Kim Anderson sucks and Mike Alden sucks. It's kinda sad that you guys are so easy to predict, but admit it, that's what you're going to be saying cuz you're already decided it.
BUT...speaking of Phil Jackson. If you want something, anything to be fairly excited about, to buy into this "well it worked with Bo Ryan at Wisconsin" stuff...I'd offer you this. Especially you younger folks who don't know who KA was and may not even remember the Michael Jordan years. But I damn well know all of you remember the Kobe Bryant/Shaq Laker years, ain't nobody on this board THAT young who doesn't at least remember that.
Well that triangle offense that the Lakers won 5 championships with that Phil Jackson ran and Tex Winter designed that everyone always talked about? You know that one? Mizzou is gonna be running that triangle offense now folks. Yep. That's what Norm Stewart's teams ran back in the day, what the 1994 team everyone loves ran, and its what Anderson has been winning at CMU with. And the things that make it so effective - constant player movement away from the ball as well as ball movement, excellent spacing, all five players involved rather than clearing out for one or two ballhogs and letting them do everything - all the stuff you all said you HATED about the last two years under Haith and wanted fixed? This system fixes that. Automatically. Tired of a ballhogging point guard dribbling the ball up top and taking a head down drive to the basket while 4 other guys stand around? Hell the new Mizzou offense barely even HAS a point guard. All 5 players are expected to be able to shoot, pass, make reads, cut with equal opportunity and in unison.
Now I'm no expert, but in terms of recruiting on a national scale, whether its Fuller or somebody else, the one thing I do is play up this offense. "Hey kid, remember growing up watching Kobe? Ever want to be him? We run the very same offense that Kobe won all his championships with here at Mizzou. Same offense Michael Jordan ran too. Calipari says he'll get you ready to play in the NBA. We'll get you ready to be an NBA *champion*."
Maybe I am just blowing sunshine up your asses. Maybe these happy thoughts are too happy. But I'm excited to run the triangle again at Mizzou. It's true team basketball, and when executed properly, the go to guy is the open man. That's a foundation. Let's build on it.
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Posted on 4/28/14 at 8:46 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Excellent post.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 8:51 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Just link us to the blog next time.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:00 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Except that we won't have the personnel for at least 3 to run that offense.
Next year will be barren. Year 2 will have his first class, but you can't run 3 freshman out there with zero experience. Leaving us to year 3 before being able to compete effectively. And above all this is under the assumption that he can recruit at D1 to even being kids in to play in his system.
I also believe that next year would have been a waste with either Marshall or Howland as our present recruits probably would've stayed, but there is no chance of that anymore.
Next year will be barren. Year 2 will have his first class, but you can't run 3 freshman out there with zero experience. Leaving us to year 3 before being able to compete effectively. And above all this is under the assumption that he can recruit at D1 to even being kids in to play in his system.
I also believe that next year would have been a waste with either Marshall or Howland as our present recruits probably would've stayed, but there is no chance of that anymore.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:00 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
ATX, I hear you. And it may be OK, especially if Fuller stays on. But for many reasons this is just disappointing.
You know I don't have a lot of knee-jerk reactions. I'm pretty level-headed when it comes to this stuff. I didn't say what I said without thinking about it. Compared to what I believe could have been done, this hire is underwhelming, uninspiring, and frankly a bit of an embarrassment. We just gave the keys to a Ferari to a tow-truck driver: he can drive it, but I don't believe he will get the performance or outcomes we should expect.
Frankly, I'm very disappointed, and expect a decline for the next several years. I hope, really and truly, that I'm proven wrong. And if I am, I'll be the first to admit it. But for now, I'm a football fan. Not basketball. And I stand by what I said earlier about Alden as well - I've been a supporter of his for years, but perhaps it's time we look for someone who can take a seat at the big boy table.
/end rant. You can try to talk me off the ledge.
You know I don't have a lot of knee-jerk reactions. I'm pretty level-headed when it comes to this stuff. I didn't say what I said without thinking about it. Compared to what I believe could have been done, this hire is underwhelming, uninspiring, and frankly a bit of an embarrassment. We just gave the keys to a Ferari to a tow-truck driver: he can drive it, but I don't believe he will get the performance or outcomes we should expect.
Frankly, I'm very disappointed, and expect a decline for the next several years. I hope, really and truly, that I'm proven wrong. And if I am, I'll be the first to admit it. But for now, I'm a football fan. Not basketball. And I stand by what I said earlier about Alden as well - I've been a supporter of his for years, but perhaps it's time we look for someone who can take a seat at the big boy table.
/end rant. You can try to talk me off the ledge.
This post was edited on 4/28/14 at 9:02 pm
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:10 pm to semotruman
quote:
We just gave the keys to a Ferari to a tow-truck driver: he can drive it, but I don't believe he will get the performance or outcomes we should expect.
Wow semo, that's harsh, especially coming from you.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:20 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
ATX, I already respect your posts because they're well thought out, whether I agree with them or not. Anderson is whatever he is. I hope he does well because I'm a Mizzou fan, but beyond that, I really don't care. I will hope the basketball team wins just like I wish the swimming and diving team wins, and I will watch them both about the same amount. That's how little this hire moves the needle for me.
Best case scenario as I can see it is it takes Anderson 4 years to right the ship, and that is assuming he can actually right the ship. Then we have him for another year or 2 before he reaches mandatory retirement age. I exaggerate, but the point is, by the time he's done rebuilding (again assuming he can) the program is going to have to hit the reset button again shortly after that because it will have to hire another new coach. So maybe we have a year or 2 of winning, good basketball, then another 4 years of rebuilding with another new coach. Hopefully that one isn't already almost 60 and has coached more than at the DII level.
As for Alden, if he's willing to hire DII coaches (and not even the best DII coach by the way), then what's to say he won't do the same thing in football. Alden has to go.
Best case scenario as I can see it is it takes Anderson 4 years to right the ship, and that is assuming he can actually right the ship. Then we have him for another year or 2 before he reaches mandatory retirement age. I exaggerate, but the point is, by the time he's done rebuilding (again assuming he can) the program is going to have to hit the reset button again shortly after that because it will have to hire another new coach. So maybe we have a year or 2 of winning, good basketball, then another 4 years of rebuilding with another new coach. Hopefully that one isn't already almost 60 and has coached more than at the DII level.
As for Alden, if he's willing to hire DII coaches (and not even the best DII coach by the way), then what's to say he won't do the same thing in football. Alden has to go.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:27 pm to reedus23
Who's to say he won't coach 10 to 12 years if he is successful? I wouldn't try to predict the future.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:30 pm to semotruman
quote:
/end rant. You can try to talk me off the ledge.
Well, that was kinda my best "talk em down" shot with my first post. But I'll give another stab.
Bo Ryan at Wisconsin. It's been mentioned many times but lets really look at this in the context of what you say:
quote:
We just gave the keys to a Ferari to a tow-truck driver: he can drive it, but I don't believe he will get the performance or outcomes we should expect.
I don't think that's the issue at all. We have a very good coach from a tactical standpoint, like Wisconsin does. The issue the past few years, if the Haith detractors were to be believed, was that we had a Ferrari in terms of talent, but a three year old at the wheel. We now have handed the keys to a guy who is a good, skilled, veteran driver in the sense of knowing how to make those hairpin turns, when to slam the brakes, where to gun it and the like. D1 or D2 has little to do with it. I saw a thread today where Beaker fans, *Beaker fans* mind you, were acknowledging that Xs and Os wise, Kim Anderson based on what he's done in his career probably already knows how to coach a game better than over 50% of D1 coaches, like right now.
I tend to agree with that. But now we have a situation where the issue is not the driver anymore - it's the car. Can we as a university and the staff that surrounds this guy, supply this driver with a car that is still a Ferrari, as you say. The Fuller thing is paramount. I've heard Matter say Fuller may well stay, I've heard ESPN say he'll probably leave. If he stays, we have a real fighting chance. Really.
Now say the worst happens and we don't keep Fuller, and moreover, Anderson doesn't bring in anybody with the sort of national or even regional recruiting cache that makes us feel safe. We are a Kim Anderson program an nothing more. What happens? Well, lemme ask this, as a team photo, does this LOOK like a Final Four team to you?
Here's the thing - they WERE a Final Four team, THIS YEAR. And let's just call it like it is, guys. Our fear is of a Mizzou team that trots out a year or two from now looking like this. We worry about having a bunch of Jeff Warren/Greg Church/Brian Grawer types out there from Bumblefrick, Missouri, whose only other offer was from Truman State. We worry about being irrelevant nationally and not getting Jimmy Whit or Jayson Tatum or any good local kids. But the Bo Ryan Wisconsin answer is - who cares? Well coached, fundamentally sound teams that play defense can still win major conference titles and make deep NCAA tournament runs, even today. Even if our deepest fears are realized, we might yet still find a seat at the big boy table, who knows.
Lastly, I go back to the discussion we just had a few days back. Kicking arse in football and basketball is still the goal. Always is. I stand by that no matter who the coach is. Hell, I had to google Frank Haith when he was hired in 2011, had no idea who he even was. He proceeded to go 30-5 and produce one of the most fun to watch Mizzou teams in any sport that I've ever seen. You don't want to write off the sport before you know how the story ends, you might miss out. That's the best I've got.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:31 pm to Mizzou4ever
quote:
Wow semo, that's harsh, especially coming from you.
I'm sorry. And I hope and pray I'm wrong. But I'm going to have to see that he can recruit not just D1 talent, but upper level D1 talent, consistently, and get them to buy into, and execute, his style of play. I'm going to have to see assistants with the connections to make this happen, because I don't believe Anderson has them himself. And I'm going to have to see his style of play win games before I can be convinced this is not a poor hire. Show me.
The only positive I see tonight is that I believe he is a good man with alot of integrity, and will bring that to the program. I don't think he'll tolerate thugs, and I like that. Otherwise, I'm very disheartened.
Now, if he keeps Fuller and hires some all-star assistants? I might feel a bit better.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:32 pm to Mizzou4ever
quote:
Who's to say he won't coach 10 to 12 years if he is successful? I wouldn't try to predict the future.
He might. Let me know how it goes.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:35 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
You don't want to write off the sport before you know how the story ends, you might miss out. That's the best I've got.
And that's pretty good. Maybe if we get those all-star assistants, I can get there. Maybe. Just disappointed today. I had very high hopes for this hire, and Alden did not deliver.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:40 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
ATX, would Anderson have been in your top 5 if he never went to Mizzou and I asked you to put a list together? I think if you are being brutally honest, the answer would be no. He probably wouldn't have entered your stream of consciousness, just like Mike Leaf or whatever his name is from Winona State didn't enter your stream of consciousness and he's done more there than Anderson has done. Now I hope you are right. It's still Mizzou basketball, so I hope they win. I'm not sold but the guy will be given a chance to prove himself obviously.
The problem is, his hire does nothing for me right now. The apathy that developed watching the team this last season was just solidified today. So while I hope they win, no, I'm not buying any tickets. No, I'm not driving the short 2 hour trip to watch a game. No, I won't go out of my way to watch them on TV or record the games like I once did. If they're on, I'm sure I'll watch a minute or 2 as I'm flipping the station to the Antique Road Show. I just don't care anymore.
The problem is, his hire does nothing for me right now. The apathy that developed watching the team this last season was just solidified today. So while I hope they win, no, I'm not buying any tickets. No, I'm not driving the short 2 hour trip to watch a game. No, I won't go out of my way to watch them on TV or record the games like I once did. If they're on, I'm sure I'll watch a minute or 2 as I'm flipping the station to the Antique Road Show. I just don't care anymore.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:46 pm to reedus23
quote:
Best case scenario as I can see it is it takes Anderson 4 years to right the ship, and that is assuming he can actually right the ship. Then we have him for another year or 2 before he reaches mandatory retirement age. I exaggerate, but the point is, by the time he's done rebuilding (again assuming he can) the program is going to have to hit the reset button again shortly after that because it will have to hire another new coach. So maybe we have a year or 2 of winning, good basketball, then another 4 years of rebuilding with another new coach.
This is definitely the biggest downside. But, to me, the other best realistic option was Howland, who is what, 2 years younger than Anderson? So the problems you mention were going to be in play either way. I don't think any of the younger coaches on the block was worth taking over Howland.
I have my doubts that Fuller can be the "coach in waiting" but if its not him, I do think you need to have somebody being groomed for that position. People are flipping out about Anderson bringing Brad Loos along to the staff, but the guy's dad is a longtime coach at Austin Peay at the D1 level and is from St.Louis so he has regional ties too, maybe he will wind up being an X and O guy we can pass the torch to. I don't know.
I definitely don't trust Alden and agree he's become something the basketball program has to work around rather than be the successful product of. But we've worked around Alden's bungling the past 15 years or so fairly well in some ways. A couple 30 game winners, a couple Elite Eights, more often in the NCAA tournament than not. The fact we have to continue to try to work around him for now is not anything new and not something that has me throwing in the towel.
Also, I don't particularly buy into the Anderson is a D2 coach moniker. Anderson was a D1 assistant coach for many, many years. We hired Quin with zero head coaching experience, all he ever was before the Mizzou gig was a D1 assistant at Duke. Anderson at least has been a head coach *somewhere* even though it wasn't at a level that makes us fully comfortable.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:49 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
MIZ-STL I think was on the same page with me but that was about
Good couple of posts ATX.
Go Tigers!
This post was edited on 4/28/14 at 9:52 pm
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:49 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Hey I'm on board. I'm reasonably optimistic. Depending on who the asst coaches are. but maybe we wind up with Fuller and Peeler which I think would be fun just to see what happens
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:50 pm to reedus23
quote:
The problem is, his hire does nothing for me right now. The apathy that developed watching the team this last season was just solidified today. So while I hope they win, no, I'm not buying any tickets. No, I'm not driving the short 2 hour trip to watch a game. No, I won't go out of my way to watch them on TV or record the games like I once did. If they're on, I'm sure I'll watch a minute or 2 as I'm flipping the station to the Antique Road Show. I just don't care anymore.
I share this feeling. In my opinion, Alden needed a guy who could fill that arena. Opportunity missed.
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:52 pm to semotruman
Let's be realistic.
Mizzou fans are pussys
Winning fills mizzou arenas
Mizzou fans are pussys
Winning fills mizzou arenas
Posted on 4/28/14 at 9:54 pm to reedus23
quote:
ATX, would Anderson have been in your top 5 if he never went to Mizzou and I asked you to put a list together? I think if you are being brutally honest, the answer would be no. He probably wouldn't have entered your stream of consciousness, just like Mike Leaf or whatever his name is from Winona State didn't enter your stream of consciousness and he's done more there than Anderson has done.
Fair question. First off, Anderson wasn't even in my top 5 for *this* hire even with the fact he *did* go to Mizzou. I wouldn't have made this hire. I'd have gone Howland. I don't care as much about baggage as this AD does.
But that said, I think the tricky part with Anderson is the only reason he even remotely works is because he did go to Mizzou. He has D1 experience at our school specifically. Its a unique package. Would Bo Ryan have EVER been in Wisconsin's top five candidates when he was hired if he hadn't once been a Wisconsin assistant coach who went on to do great things at a smaller school in Wisconsin specifically? Hell no. If he'd been doing that stuff in Alabama they wouldn't have considered him. But he fit the region and the school and the culture. The chance that the Kim Anderson hire has is for the same reasons. They are inextricably linked.
I cannot understand, for instance, why in the world people can say Marquette made a good hire in hiring Steve Wojohoiski or however the hell you spell his name from Duke but then say Anderson is awful. Wojo has only ever been an assistant at the D1 level. So too was Anderson. Both were assistants under great, great coaches. If you say "yeah but its Coach K, not Norm," tell you what, go ask Coach K what he thinks of Norm and he will tell you he's a great coach to learn from. Anderson's *got* D1 experience. He's sat on the bench and been involved in beating #1 ranked, 22-0 kansas with NBA all-star Paul Pierce leading them. This ain't his first rodeo. That said, he's old enough it will certainly be his last.
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