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Challenging the notion about talent gap & our inevitable fate to fall short
Posted on 12/11/14 at 6:50 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 6:50 pm
Both Bernie's article on the talent gap and a thread started by a Mizzou fan on the main rant page motivated me to finally sign up for this site. Hello all.
Here's why I disagree with recent assessments that Mizzou didn't have the talent and will always fall a little short.
The team Mizzou should have had this year had the talent to beat Bama and win the national championship.
Josey and or Steward at running back, even consider Abbington (who should have been here) would have allowed Murphy to be an elite and dangerous slot receiver this year. This alone changes the entire offense.
Now add DGB as the big man on the outside, and deep threat.
That equals an entirely different offense, which equals an entirely different team.
Obviously we know the defense was legit and could have beat anyone.
So in actuality Mizzou recruited and developed players well enough to beat the best.
If you'z agree, great, if not, cool too.
Here's why I disagree with recent assessments that Mizzou didn't have the talent and will always fall a little short.
The team Mizzou should have had this year had the talent to beat Bama and win the national championship.
Josey and or Steward at running back, even consider Abbington (who should have been here) would have allowed Murphy to be an elite and dangerous slot receiver this year. This alone changes the entire offense.
Now add DGB as the big man on the outside, and deep threat.
That equals an entirely different offense, which equals an entirely different team.
Obviously we know the defense was legit and could have beat anyone.
So in actuality Mizzou recruited and developed players well enough to beat the best.
If you'z agree, great, if not, cool too.
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 6:53 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:02 pm to miz_zombie
DGB would have made a huge difference in our offense. There is no doubt there. That's not on the staff.
I also don't agree with the "not enough talent" line. People get way too invested in recruiting rankings. I don't think we were out talented vs Auburn, we were outcoached. This year, sure but Bama is more talented than pretty much everybody. Also, take a look at the All SEC selections. We are very well represented. Look at all the draft picks. Specifically the high ones. We have plenty of talent. Way more than anyone gives us credit for.
I also don't agree with the "not enough talent" line. People get way too invested in recruiting rankings. I don't think we were out talented vs Auburn, we were outcoached. This year, sure but Bama is more talented than pretty much everybody. Also, take a look at the All SEC selections. We are very well represented. Look at all the draft picks. Specifically the high ones. We have plenty of talent. Way more than anyone gives us credit for.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:14 pm to miz_zombie
quote:
If you'z agree, great, if not, cool too.
Every team loses players from season ending injury, early draft, and being kicked, we don't live under different rules than others, and don't have an exceptional or abnormal roster deficiency.
The talent differential between us and Bama is substantial, if you don't believe it, that's fine, believe whatever you want, but as far as I'm concerned it's a fact.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:16 pm to Jagd Tiger
quote:
The talent differential between us and Bama is substantial, if you don't believe it, that's fine, believe whatever you want, but as far as I'm concerned it's a fact.
You misunderstood what was said. I'm sorry.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:19 pm to miz_zombie
quote:
You misunderstood what was said. I'm sorry.
quote:
Here's why I disagree with recent assessments that Mizzou didn't have the talent
The team Mizzou should have had this year had the talent to beat Bama
ok then.
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 7:36 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:38 pm to Jagd Tiger
It's obvious that Alabama has more talent top to bottom, I'm most definitely not saying we match up head for head.
The point is that Mizzou recruited and developed players well enough to beat anyone, unfortunately some unpredictable things happened that took away from the team Mizzou should have had (yes, all teams lose players for various reasons).
The stance that the gap is very large and we will always be overmatched I feel is inaccurate and omits a larger context.
I'll leave it at that, you seem difficult for the sake of being difficult and zero-summed, two traits I try to avoid when having a discussion.
The point is that Mizzou recruited and developed players well enough to beat anyone, unfortunately some unpredictable things happened that took away from the team Mizzou should have had (yes, all teams lose players for various reasons).
The stance that the gap is very large and we will always be overmatched I feel is inaccurate and omits a larger context.
I'll leave it at that, you seem difficult for the sake of being difficult and zero-summed, two traits I try to avoid when having a discussion.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:44 pm to miz_zombie
quote:
I'll leave it at that, you seem difficult for the sake of being difficult and zero-summed, two traits I try to avoid when having a discussion.
I'm sorry you feel that way (well not really, actually I don't care at all)..
either way I ripped your "challenge" to shreds, the fact that you don't understand why tells me you're in for a rough row to hoe in life.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 7:57 pm to Jagd Tiger
Yikes...welcome to the board OP!
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:00 pm to JesusQuintana
quote:
Yikes...welcome to the board OP!
Thanks. Very welcoming so far, haha.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:01 pm to miz_zombie
First, a question. I only know 2 people to use the term Miz Zombie. Killz and Dave Matter. So which are ya?
Seriously though, just to take the flip side to what you say, my response would be shite happens. It happens every year. If you regularly have top 20 classes, then when DGB goes down, you have PBR ready to go and don't miss a beat. We don't have that kind of luxury because typically, when you recruit 2 and 3* recruits, it takes 2 or 3 years to get them ready to contribute significantly. As opposed to the 4 or 5 star (take Beckner for example) who could come in and contribute immediately if someone leaves early for the NFL or whatever reason.
I know it's not realistic, but as an example, if we had recruited a Nick Chubb instead of Ish Witter, then losing Abbington and Steward and Josey doesn't change the entire offense. That is what I mean when I talk about talent gaps and needing to close it in order to get to the next level. Closer to home and more realistic. Keep in state kid Elliott and the offense doesn't change with losing those guys.
Seriously though, just to take the flip side to what you say, my response would be shite happens. It happens every year. If you regularly have top 20 classes, then when DGB goes down, you have PBR ready to go and don't miss a beat. We don't have that kind of luxury because typically, when you recruit 2 and 3* recruits, it takes 2 or 3 years to get them ready to contribute significantly. As opposed to the 4 or 5 star (take Beckner for example) who could come in and contribute immediately if someone leaves early for the NFL or whatever reason.
I know it's not realistic, but as an example, if we had recruited a Nick Chubb instead of Ish Witter, then losing Abbington and Steward and Josey doesn't change the entire offense. That is what I mean when I talk about talent gaps and needing to close it in order to get to the next level. Closer to home and more realistic. Keep in state kid Elliott and the offense doesn't change with losing those guys.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:02 pm to JesusQuintana
you think I'm rough, wait til he ventures over to the rant.
It's not gonna be pretty.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:04 pm to JesusQuintana
quote:
People get way too invested in recruiting rankings.
I hear ya that some, including myself, get too wrapped up in it. But please show me a national champion who had a recruiting class in the 40's at any point in the 4 years prior to winning the championship.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:07 pm to miz_zombie
quote:
The stance that the gap is very large and we will always be overmatched I feel is inaccurate and omits a larger context.
I don't think the gap is large. Sometimes typed words aren't good at giving context. But I do think there is a gap. I guess the way to look at it I think, is the way we do what we do leaves little room for error (guys leaving early, dismissed etc.)
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:08 pm to miz_zombie
quote:
Thanks. Very welcoming so far, haha.
Yes, welcome zombie.
Don't mind some of us. Some of us like to test the newcomers. Ok, I'm full of it. People just are who they are.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:17 pm to reedus23
quote:
First, a question. I only know 2 people to use the term Miz Zombie. Killz and Dave Matter. So which are ya?
I read it in a recent Matter article, also, I've lurked the site and saw it mentioned.
Due to my lack of creativity I stole someone else's brainchild!
I most definitely hear what you're saying, my response is that we're not talking about going head for head with talent depth as the elite programs, and I understand that was part of the point Bernie was making. However, that doesn't mean that the talent gap is so very large and we're forever fated to fall short. I feel the narrative being put out there really isn't as accurate as it should be.
Mizzou has to have the stars align. We need all to go right, all the pieces to be in the right place at the right time.
DGB getting kicked off, Josey making a very poor decision, Abbington failing to qualify, and Steward getting hurt changed the team drastically.
With those pieces in place you can beat and match up with anyone.
What I'm saying is more for mental exercise. I realize all teams lose players for various reason. I realize we're not going to have 4 stars on third string like the elites.
Thinking about what could have been, and what will be again (these kind of pieces will be in place again) allows us to see that we shouldn't accept the notion that we'll always fall short because of a talent gap we can't overcome.
*And thanks for the welcome!
This post was edited on 12/11/14 at 8:19 pm
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:26 pm to miz_zombie
I hear what you're saying. In fact, I think we're probably on the same page. I guess my only point is how often does something not pop up. Whether it's an injury. A dismissal. A very poor decision.
I also don't think that we're that far from getting those kind of classes that I think would put us in top 20 ranges. GP historically had done well in state. For some reason, that hasn't been the case since the move to the SEC. Just as much as those stars aligning, I think had he been able to land Elliott and Johnson (started at LT for FSU), heck, even Duron Neal, things might have been different. Those are things that I think GP can get done and just those little bumps can make a difference.
I also don't think that we're that far from getting those kind of classes that I think would put us in top 20 ranges. GP historically had done well in state. For some reason, that hasn't been the case since the move to the SEC. Just as much as those stars aligning, I think had he been able to land Elliott and Johnson (started at LT for FSU), heck, even Duron Neal, things might have been different. Those are things that I think GP can get done and just those little bumps can make a difference.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:28 pm to reedus23
Oh, and I was ribbing about the name. It was a joke here because killz came up with the name and about a week or two later, Matter uses it in an article.
Got me thinking now.
Maybe.
Just maybe.
If you're not Matter.
Then maybe
Killz = Matter
Got me thinking now.
Maybe.
Just maybe.
If you're not Matter.
Then maybe
Killz = Matter
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:31 pm to miz_zombie
First, Bernie on Mizzou football?? really??
But you presented the argument, and framed the premise as a "false notion of a talent gap".
Then you presented 3 cases:
DGB - kicked
Steward - out for season
Josey - left early
and seem to believe if not for the extenuating circumstances surrounding these individual players, Mizzou is right there in the hunt with the same talent as everyone else. At least that's how you made it sound.
The problem is that in reality there is no unlevel playing field for Mizzou, every team we play including Bama kicks players, and since they're Bama we know they are talented, every team has players out, probably for the season and we know talented teams(like Bama) are gonna have players leave early. So in what universe does negating these circumstances NOT apply across the board to all other teams as well? It doesn't, not at all, in any way shape or form.
Your logic on this is just flat out fail.
Sorry but your "challenge" was met at the door, carded and sent packing for the obvious phony ID it presented...
"better luck next time kid".
and welcome to the rant..
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:39 pm to Jagd Tiger
Deep breaths, man.
Deep breaths.
Deep breaths.
Posted on 12/11/14 at 8:42 pm to Mizzeaux
quote:
Deep breaths, man.
well I was laughing, but I wasn't laughing THAT HARD...
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