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re: 2017-18 Alabama Basketball Season Thread: 20-16 (10-11)

Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:21 pm to
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
9190 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:21 pm to
quote:

I'll talk some of you off the ledge. I heard the exact same problems regarding the Auburn team at the end of last year. You won't find articles on it because AU beat writers suck

It shouldn't be shocking that this sentiment exists. Right now, you have a lot of new puzzle pieces that unfortunately fit different puzzles. When you start losing, young guys get frustrated and upset


I agree with this. Not even considering next season, if Alabama were to simply beat Texas A&M they will be in the NCAA tournament and a first round win would have people thinking this was just as much a really bad 1 week lull coming off two very tough road trips/games at UK and AU.

Let's not forget that the Florida team that caused this current meltdown was beaten just as badly at home by Alabama a month ago causing about the same "Mike White has lost the team" ect ect sentiments from their fans.




quote:

I've said it up and down this thread, Bama needs to teach kids how to shoot or more likely just recruit better shooters considering Avery Jr is 21 and still can't shoot.




Avery's not a great shooter but isn't the best example of Bama's 3pt shooting woes. He's actually fairly decent even with the odd form. Significantly, he seems to shoot his percentage at around 30-33% consistently without out-of-the-ordinary hot and cold streaks. I would also point out that his percentage is lowered by the uncommon amount of bad possessions --partly his fault due to other deficiencies in his game -- that end with him heaving a desperation 3.


The better examples are guys that actually do have solid 3 pt shots. We'll have to disagree completely on Petty. IMO, he's a 3 pt shooter that should be tearing it up and the kind that would be hitting "oh no. . . oh yeah" shite from all over the court at 40+% in Bruce Pearl's offense like Porter (EDIT: Harper), just for example.

The Petty problem, in my opinion, is one that's plagued Alabama's offense under Grant and now Johnson. Very simple to see but sure seems hard to fix: the offense just doesn't get guys comfortable doing what they do best. The most obvious description of Alabama's players on offense is too often "overthinking" "reluctant" and "nervous."


Much has been made of Petty's road shooting problems but I'd love to see his 3pt shooting percentage (along with Key and Sexton) on shots when the game is kind of out of hand either way-- I'd bet that each is 15-20% points higher -- or about double the deviation you'd expect in those situations.

That tells me these guys don't have a shooting problem but a mental issue and I think that comes from not being comfortable running the regular offense (which is a coaching problem).


I do agree with you on Ingram being so reluctant to shoot the three.

However, we do have a coach who was successful NBA point guard never known to shoot first and I've seen about a million offenses work very well with a guy that can drive strong but doesn't like the 3 point shot.

That again goes back to coaching and making the offense fit the players and having them in position to do what they're comfortable doing.

What I don't like above all is how slow both Grant's and now Johnson's offenses were/are.

If you have guys that thrive driving, you absolutely have to be moving --the ball, players off the ball -- on offense a whole lot quicker than Alabama is usually doing.

That's when Ingram, for example, will be getting a pass and not calling for a screener late in the shot clock but already have a scrambling defender to drive.

It's not that this doesn't ever work for Alabama -- the efficient offense when they've won big games this season (against some solid defending teams as well) has looked just like this.


This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 9:09 pm
Posted by Cobrasize
Birmingham
Member since Jun 2013
49884 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:32 pm to
quote:

Let's not forget that the Florida team that caused this current meltdown was beaten just as badly at home by Alabama a month ago causing about the same Mike White has lost the team ect ect sentiments from their fans.

Now this just isn't true. This meltdown has been caused by the Auburn game, the Arkansas game and the Florida game. It's a four game losing streak. We haven't shown any life since the first half of the Auburn game. For you to sit there and say that we are flipping out over one game is a flat out lie.
Posted by phil4bama
Emerald Coast of PCB
Member since Jul 2011
11868 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:50 pm to
What about Buzz Williams at Va Tech or Eric Musselman at Nevada? Forbes or Kermit Davis at ETSU and MTSU respectively? The guy at St. Mary’s? Scott Drew at Baylor?
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 6:25 pm
Posted by Gary Busey
Member since Dec 2014
33277 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:57 pm to
It's painful talking about yet another potential coaching search
Posted by GenesChin
The Promise Land
Member since Feb 2012
37838 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 6:00 pm to
quote:

He's actually fairly decent if not great even with the odd form 


My comment was about how Avery Jr has that weird form, not his shooting %. I mean, Shawn Marion w his weird chest pass + sideways finger hit some 35% in the NBA

It is concerning that Avery wasn't able to teach better form to his own son is my point. Honestly it just means someone on staff needs to have that ability to teach

quote:

Petty. IMO, he's a 3 pt shooter that should be tearing it up and the kind that would be hitting "oh no. . . oh yeah


Petty could be that guy, but out of HS that wasn't his game. He has 3PT sharpshooter potential but he didn't show up w that shooters eye and consistency

He also isn't a catch and shoot guy. There is a difference between rythym shooting off the dribble and spot shooting




ETA: Auburn doesn't have a Porter


This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 6:01 pm
Posted by The Spleen
Member since Dec 2010
38865 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 6:29 pm to
quote:

It's painful talking about yet another potential coaching search



Don't think about it because it's not happening after this season. Avery will be our coach next year unless he decides to leave.
Posted by Gongora
Member since Feb 2015
625 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:00 pm to
You guys move too fast for me. By the time I have a chance to respond to anything the thread had gained 5 pages and the topic has changed at least a half dozen times.

Butler was recruited to compete for the starting job next year. I’d be surprised if he doesn’t start at least some games while the rotation is being worked out. I’ll be happy with Fleming if he’ll commit to rebounding. No clue what the Wood kid will offer next year, but need more depth at the 2 spot.

Regarding our talent level a few pages back, could we throw an experience metric into the equation to see how things play out? Wouldn’t everybody prefer having an upperclassman that was in 100-150 range out of high school over a kid in the 50-100 range that’s a freshman or sophomore? To me it would be a more accurate gauge for expectations next year.

I’ll hang up and listen.
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
9190 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:25 pm to
quote:

Now this just isn't true. This meltdown has been caused by the Auburn game, the Arkansas game and the Florida game. It's a four game losing streak. We haven't shown any life since the first half of the Auburn game. For you to sit there and say that we are flipping out over one game is a flat out lie.


I didn't mean to imply that it's "only" one game causing the melt but that it was similar to Florida who'd lost at home to South Carolina, beat Baylor but then lost to Georgia just before Alabama ran them off their home court. Their fans were discussing who to replace White with after that but they turned it around a bit.

quote:

He also isn't a catch and shoot guy. There is a difference between rythym shooting off the dribble and spot shooting ETA: Auburn doesn't have a Porter


Ha, I meant Harper. He throws up some crazy threes but seems to hit a decent percentage of them.

Petty has been just as good catch & shoot off of screens or on the break -- when he's not in a nutty funk, that is, and then he just doesn't make any shot. Maybe his movement to get the open look could be better but that's back to the whole problem with movement and timing in the offense.

I'd think most college staffs have/need someone besides the head coach to work on shooting. Don't know who that is for Bama but that may well be an issue.












This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 9:41 pm
Posted by Cobrasize
Birmingham
Member since Jun 2013
49884 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:33 pm to
Just wanted to stop by and say frick Wichita State.
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
9190 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:38 pm to
quote:

Regarding our talent level a few pages back, could we throw an experience metric into the equation to see how things play out? Wouldn’t everybody prefer having an upperclassman that was in 100-150 range out of high school over a kid in the 50-100 range that’s a freshman or sophomore? To me it would be a more accurate gauge for expectations next year.

I’ll hang up and listen.


I couldn't agree more. I'd thought about commenting on the same thing regarding the discussion of 4/5 star roster talent. The "rankings" completely left out the returning players that we know are good -- the ones that would certainly be high 4 stars if the rankings were redone based on how good they've actually played in real college games.


That Tennessee returns some 3 star players who've looked fantastic makes them a clear favorite over LSU, for example, even if LSU may have a lot more young 4/5 star players on next year's roster.

Having Hall and Jones back, just for example, would make me think the team will be a whole lot better than if they left to be replaced by higher ranker freshmen.

Posted by Cobrasize
Birmingham
Member since Jun 2013
49884 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:39 pm to
quote:

I didn't mean to imply that it's "only" one game causing the melt but that it was similar to Florida who'd lost at home to South Carolina, beat Baylor but then lost to Georgia just before Alabama ran them off their home court. Their fans were discussing who to replace White with after that but they turned it around a bit.

I apologize if I came across kinda shitty. I just feel that some of us have been pointing out issues all season and we have been called idiots and that we didn't know how basketball works. I'm a little jumpy at this point

As far as it being similar to Florida's situation, I disagree. They've had issues but they seem to have figured them out. We haven't figured anything out. I hope I'm proven wrong against A&M and in the SEC tournament but I really feel like Avery has lost this team.
Posted by Bamainva40
Member since Nov 2017
1677 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:39 pm to
Lol I agree double Frick them and Marshall
Posted by train1523
Birmingham
Member since Jul 2011
296 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:42 pm to
quote:

Some people look down at non P5 programs and assume their coaches are easily hirable


Didn't necessarily mean it like that, but there is no question Alabama would be a step up for Hurley.

As for Mack and Cronin, sure they're pipe dreams, but I never said we could definitely get them, in fact I said they would turn us down. Never know unless you ask. Of those Hurley is easily the most realistic but at least make the other guys say no.

quote:

but when they inevitably turn us down


I think there's no chance Avery is gone after this season, nor do I think he should be. But if/when we miss the tourney his seat should be red hot next year.
Posted by Cobrasize
Birmingham
Member since Jun 2013
49884 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:44 pm to
quote:

Lol I agree double Frick them and Marshall

I don't know if you ever went to their forum while we were trying to get Marshall, but their fans are some arrogant assholes. The have no reason to act the way they do. Wichita State went from barely being a blip on my radar to my most hated team. They can all go to hell.
Posted by Cobrasize
Birmingham
Member since Jun 2013
49884 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:46 pm to
quote:

I think there's no chance Avery is gone after this season, nor do I think he should be. But if/when we miss the tourney his seat should be red hot next year.

I agree that he won't be gone after this season. However, I do believe he should be gone. I think we have reached his ceiling. He might be better suited for pro ball.
Posted by Bryant91092
Member since Dec 2009
25433 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:49 pm to
I love coaching searches. That's when you convince yourself this coach is the one.
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
9190 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:00 pm to
quote:

apologize if I came across kinda shitty. I just feel that some of us have been pointing out issues all season and we have been called idiots and that we didn't know how basketball works. I'm a little jumpy at this point

As far as it being similar to Florida's situation, I disagree. They've had issues but they seem to have figured them out. We haven't figured anything out. I hope I'm proven wrong against A&M and in the SEC tournament but I really feel like Avery has lost this team.



No need for apology as I was just clarifying the unclear point I'd made and didn't think you were rude.

My thought about Florida was simply that we haven't seen if Bama turns it around from that low point or not yet.

I'm certainly not suddenly expecting a well-oiled machine on offense -- that's where I think Johnson has a lot to improve on coaching.

However, I also think the issue is younger players all pressing too hard, over thinking and getting completely frustrated more than that "he's lost the team" any more than Mike White had "lost the team" during Florida's slump with their ugly, low energy, home losses.

This isn't to let Johnson "off the hook" at all since the reason they're so frustrated is that whatever he's coaching them to do on offense just isn't working.

However, the reason we're on the bubble at all is that the team has won a lot of games already with decent offense and great defense.





This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 8:49 pm
Posted by Bamainva40
Member since Nov 2017
1677 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:43 pm to
I Everyone here is making valid points so I'll add one more...Since 1987 12 teams have made the NCAA as an at large with 14 losses, Vanderbilt made it with 15 last year. Blew my mind it was that many instances, bet they all had challenging schedules
Posted by GenesChin
The Promise Land
Member since Feb 2012
37838 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:53 pm to
Of the ones in the past 15 years (8 Teams I think) 5 teams came in 2011 which was a weird year


Posted by phil4bama
Emerald Coast of PCB
Member since Jul 2011
11868 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 9:00 pm to
But Vandy won 6 of 7 down the stretch with their only loss being Kentucky. Then they won 2 games in the SEC tourney to reach the semis before UF beat them. They were hot and looking good.

We are crashing and burning and couldn’t beat the women’s team right now. Big difference. We’d better win some games.
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