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re: Those of you who are calling for JHC's head....
Posted on 1/20/14 at 7:35 am to dawgsjw
Posted on 1/20/14 at 7:35 am to dawgsjw
quote:
Also, these universities and the NCAA is a business. To think otherwise is asinine. So why shouldn't the players get paid like anyone else who works for a business?
Ok. I could go along with paying them what I got paid while I was working...then having them pay for their own food, lodging, and education like all the other students. I think they would not come out ahead, but if that is what you think is fair...
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Posted on 1/20/14 at 7:51 am to DawgsLife
If you pay football players, you have to pay all student-athletes of all sports...equally. Just like you cannot dining halls, academic centers, or any other perk just for a specific sport, you can't just pay football players. Part of that is Title IX, which is federal law, as well.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 7:54 am to dawgsjw
quote:
Getting a grant for a school is different than making a profit from the football team. These players are tearing acls, getting concussions, etc, while bringing in millions, which I'm sure those grad students are doing the same thing.
Now you are changing the argument. You first said they should get paid because they bring money into the University. You also said that since football brings in the money, then football players should be the ones that get compensated.
NOW you are saying they should be compensated because they get injured. Don't basketball players, baseball players and other sports teams suffer injuries? So, you need to make up your mind. Do we compensate them because they bring money into the University? Or do we compensate all sports participants because they risk injury?
quote:
Also you think the NCAA isn't a business??
I think the NCAA is a business. And that is precisely why they resist paying athletes. So they can continue to make money. If they don't make money they don't stay in business.
quote:
Also, going to uga doesn't cost 150k.
University of Georgia domestic tuition
US$ 28,472 (2013)
Multiply that by four and see what you get.
$113,888. Now add in room and board and that and that runs about $28,000 for four years, you are realistically talking about $141,000.
As for your argument that most would get financial assistance? I would counter that MOST would not even go to college if it were not for football and their scholarships.
As for the HOPE Scholarship....how many of them do you think would qualify for it? Not many would be able to keep a "B" average, so they would lose it immediately.
quote:
So all you guys acting like the scholarship is payment enough for bringing in millions is just stupid, especially when a school is recruiting a guy to come in and play football, not for their academics.
This is true...but the academics is there for the students benefit. that is the payment the student gets for playing football. That is like saying a business hires someone to work not to get paid. That is true...the pay is the benefit of doing what the business wants.
quote:
if you have any fun and get caught, you could get screwed over in your football career, which is why you are coming to uga in the first place (marshall, mett, crowell)
Seriously? you are going to use two sexual deviants and a thief to make your point? In your world we should have turned a blind eye to what they did?
Posted on 1/20/14 at 9:46 am to crispyUGA
All student athletes dont bring in the same amount of money for the university. I support a stipend because they are treated like unpaid employees. Who are we to "discipline" grown men who arent getting paid. A lot of people get financial aid and arent subject to scrutiny.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 10:22 am to adawgj
They already get a stipend for living off campus.
I haven't heard how much is being paid right now, but I would guess about 1K a month.
Throw in 4 roommates and that's about $800 a month spending money.
The problem isn't getting spending money.
It's not spending it on cars, insurance, cell phones, NFL Packages, etc..
The problem is locking themselves into contracts that take all of the spending money and leave nothing for the girlfriend.
I haven't heard how much is being paid right now, but I would guess about 1K a month.
Throw in 4 roommates and that's about $800 a month spending money.
The problem isn't getting spending money.
It's not spending it on cars, insurance, cell phones, NFL Packages, etc..
The problem is locking themselves into contracts that take all of the spending money and leave nothing for the girlfriend.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 10:43 am to dawgsjw
DawgsLife pretty much covered everything (thanks, DL), so I'll just add my $0.02.
As DL said, the issue was about players bringing in money, not whether they get injured (not every player gets injured, btw) or how hard they work (they work hard physically but other students sacrifice their time and energy in other ways to pay for school or to keep their grades where they need to be). The players know the risks. They play football at a university for a shot at millions in the NFL or at least a degree that costs them nothing out-of-pocket that will help them out in life (hopefully) in exchange for playing a sport that they love to play.
The NCAA is officially a non-profit organization, so if they operated exactly like a for-profit business, the IRS would be seeking a lot of money from them. I don't agree with a lot of what the NCAA does, but they are responsible for a lot of money flowing into universities that may not go there otherwise. Some reformation is definitely needed, but I don't think paying players is a necessary step to that end.
Going to UGA (or any big university) does cost a lot of money and most students don't/can't get scholarships of any kind that help them pay for their education. Most students get student loans and wind up spending the next 20 years after graduation paying that off; something I'm doing, myself. Football players with a business degree may have been on equal footing with me when we graduated, but I left with a lot of debt where they were Scot-free in that regard. That, in and of itself, is a major blessing that many of those players won't fully appreciate.
A scholarship is enough, IMO, for the money the players bring to the universities. Those, by themselves, are worth a lot of money, and the players earn them by working hard on the field. But on top of that, attending the university gives them an opportunity to take their talents to the next level. Playing for UGA, for instance, gives NFL scouts a lot more visibility into the skills of the players and increases their chances of being drafted or making a team where they can make millions a year (something that I doubt I'll ever do). That chance alone is worth it, isn't it? It is to those kids. Even if they aren't quite good enough to play football professionally, their "fall back" is an education and degree from the university and connections that will help them get moving in the right direction. My degree didn't come with sweet connections and no one was willing to give me a shot over someone else because they didn't know my name and I didn't play football at their alma mater.
Also, coaches and assistants are paid the same way teachers and presidents (of universities) are paid. They are hired by the university to get the most out of the students/athletes and to improve the standing of the university. Their "compensation" is money and benefits for their work for the university. The "compensation" for the players is development, knowledge, a degree (if they stay), and opportunities that many kids don't get.
Finally, say what you want about our standards at UGA, but we haven't been hurting with recruits and most of the kids on our teams have obeyed the rules (or at least not got caught). I think that says more about JHC than our program. He's got the opportunity to make something of himself. He just has to do his part like everyone else.
As DL said, the issue was about players bringing in money, not whether they get injured (not every player gets injured, btw) or how hard they work (they work hard physically but other students sacrifice their time and energy in other ways to pay for school or to keep their grades where they need to be). The players know the risks. They play football at a university for a shot at millions in the NFL or at least a degree that costs them nothing out-of-pocket that will help them out in life (hopefully) in exchange for playing a sport that they love to play.
The NCAA is officially a non-profit organization, so if they operated exactly like a for-profit business, the IRS would be seeking a lot of money from them. I don't agree with a lot of what the NCAA does, but they are responsible for a lot of money flowing into universities that may not go there otherwise. Some reformation is definitely needed, but I don't think paying players is a necessary step to that end.
Going to UGA (or any big university) does cost a lot of money and most students don't/can't get scholarships of any kind that help them pay for their education. Most students get student loans and wind up spending the next 20 years after graduation paying that off; something I'm doing, myself. Football players with a business degree may have been on equal footing with me when we graduated, but I left with a lot of debt where they were Scot-free in that regard. That, in and of itself, is a major blessing that many of those players won't fully appreciate.
A scholarship is enough, IMO, for the money the players bring to the universities. Those, by themselves, are worth a lot of money, and the players earn them by working hard on the field. But on top of that, attending the university gives them an opportunity to take their talents to the next level. Playing for UGA, for instance, gives NFL scouts a lot more visibility into the skills of the players and increases their chances of being drafted or making a team where they can make millions a year (something that I doubt I'll ever do). That chance alone is worth it, isn't it? It is to those kids. Even if they aren't quite good enough to play football professionally, their "fall back" is an education and degree from the university and connections that will help them get moving in the right direction. My degree didn't come with sweet connections and no one was willing to give me a shot over someone else because they didn't know my name and I didn't play football at their alma mater.
Also, coaches and assistants are paid the same way teachers and presidents (of universities) are paid. They are hired by the university to get the most out of the students/athletes and to improve the standing of the university. Their "compensation" is money and benefits for their work for the university. The "compensation" for the players is development, knowledge, a degree (if they stay), and opportunities that many kids don't get.
Finally, say what you want about our standards at UGA, but we haven't been hurting with recruits and most of the kids on our teams have obeyed the rules (or at least not got caught). I think that says more about JHC than our program. He's got the opportunity to make something of himself. He just has to do his part like everyone else.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:06 am to crispyUGA
quote:
Now you are changing the argument. You first said they should get paid because they bring money into the University. You also said that since football brings in the money, then football players should be the ones that get compensated.
Yeah you gotta change your argument since I'm getting more specific about it. So what benefits the school better, football program bringing in millions or a grant, which are usually used for specific research not like what could be used off the football revenue, which covers a wider spectrum.
I"m not saying they should get compensated for injuries, but when you are a high recruit out of highschool, you think they are thinking they gonna make it as a doctor, or as a football player in the NFL? These 4-5* recruits are all planning on making it to the NFL, as they are physically talented enough to make it w/ proper training.
quote:
I think the NCAA is a business. And that is precisely why they resist paying athletes. So they can continue to make money. If they don't make money they don't stay in business.
So you agree that the NCAA is a business but they shouldn't pay their athletes who make a profit? SO you agree that the powers at be for the NCAA should continue to profit off these kids, while they get paid nothing!?? So you like the sound of communist china right??
quote:
As for the HOPE Scholarship....how many of them do you think would qualify for it? Not many would be able to keep a "B" average, so they would lose it immediately.
Hope scholarship is easy to maintain, its just a b grade. Also UGA has standards right?? why does these student football players get to come here w/ subpar gpa and SAT/ACT scores?? B/c they could care less as long as these dumbass can make a profit. I've had friends who made 1200 or so on the SAT and still couldn't get accepted to uga. But these players get special attention.
quote:Student benefits is not teh same as payment. Can the students go to the dealership and buy a car and pay with lunch credits at uga?? Can they go to walmart and use their book card for groceries?? To say scholarship is compensation is not right, you already admitted these guys aren't here for their diploma, they are here for the NFL. Some guys on the team might benefit, but when you got a bunch of 4-5* thinking they are going to make it, then the degree means nothing.
This is true...but the academics is there for the students benefit. that is the payment the student gets for playing football. That is like saying a business hires someone to work not to get paid. That is true...the pay is the benefit of doing what the business wants.
quote:
Seriously? you are going to use two sexual deviants and a thief to make your point? In your world we should have turned a blind eye to what they did?
Yes I am, b/c who is overreacting about JHC failing two drug test for weed, when at other SEC schools he would not be suspended for 4 games like at uga. ALso crowell charges got dropped. U think we coulda used him this year?? Also is a player who smokes pot, worse than those sexual deviants and thief?? The way yall are pussy hurt over it, makes it seem so. Its the policy at uga that needs to change, not these kids having fun and smoking weed. Again you ignored this the whole thread, but why would this not be a fricking problem at alabama, auburn, LSU, you know the teams in teh sec that has won a motherfricking championship unlike Richts goodie two shoes. We keep suspending guys like JHC, Olgetree, Rambo, etc for stupid drug test fails, not crime related drug charges, just failing a piss test. Stuff like this is why we will always be 9-3 or so, b/c we suspended our best players for doing something that what college students do. Also weed is good for you, so theres a reason why its used medically in 20 states plus our capital. Its a whole other subject, but weed can help these players out by finding a link b/w 2 different unrelated concepts. Its been proven by science, also it doesn't cause lung cancer and has been shown to cure cancer and tumors. So its not like we are talking about crack or meth and have JHC kicked out of college forever! Its just weed.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:09 am to meansonny
LINK
Here is the "benefit package" Arkansas athletes recieved in 2011...UGA might be a little higher
BUT the point is these guys can get up to 17K a
year and it doesn't include books and tuition.
Most college kids I know could "get by" rather nicely on this amount.I have 2 nieces that go to UGA and I can assure you they don't get close to those numbers for room and board and spending $$.
Here is the "benefit package" Arkansas athletes recieved in 2011...UGA might be a little higher
BUT the point is these guys can get up to 17K a
year and it doesn't include books and tuition.
Most college kids I know could "get by" rather nicely on this amount.I have 2 nieces that go to UGA and I can assure you they don't get close to those numbers for room and board and spending $$.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:15 am to adawgj
quote:
All student athletes dont bring in the same amount of money for the university. I support a stipend because they are treated like unpaid employees. Who are we to "discipline" grown men who arent getting paid. A lot of people get financial aid and arent subject to scrutiny.
Word! A lot of people can go to UGA for relatively cheap, like I said my brother went there and he only had to pay for his apartment, which is what normal people have to do anyway. He didnt have to pay no 150K a year or over 4 years like that clown made it out to be. Yeah if you dont get any help, yeah maybe it might cost that much, but for these stupid players (which yall pointed out), then they would qualify for help anyway. If they couldn't keep the grades, they wouldnt get to play anyway.
Students on scholarships are not drug tested or whatever. As long as they can maintain there grades, they keep it, regardless how many drugs they are on. But football players are held to a different standard, even though they bring in millions for the school. They dont get paid for this, but any screw up and it becomes public and you better not fail a drug test. These football players do so much for the school, more so than the reg students (i know this is tough for some of yall to swallow), yet they dont get a dime. Its messed up. atleast a few ppl realize this, and others like this form of slavery.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:17 am to dawgsjw
And dont give me this non profit crap. if the NCAA is non profit, then why are they in business?? Its b/c they make a profit somehow, maybe they dont get taxed onit, but they are rolling in the $$$.
Also did you know the NFL is a non profit organization? Kinda fricked up what can be listed as non profit, aint it??
Also if these players can get 17,000$ in cash each year, you think the whole football team is getting that?? If you have 88 players on scholarship times 17,000, you come up with over a million paid every yr to players on uga. You think that this is actually happening? With the football program bringing in the only profit for uga for a sports program, I highly doubt every scholarship player is gettin 17,000$ a year. If so, then good for them, but agian this seems highly unlikely.
Also did you know the NFL is a non profit organization? Kinda fricked up what can be listed as non profit, aint it??
Also if these players can get 17,000$ in cash each year, you think the whole football team is getting that?? If you have 88 players on scholarship times 17,000, you come up with over a million paid every yr to players on uga. You think that this is actually happening? With the football program bringing in the only profit for uga for a sports program, I highly doubt every scholarship player is gettin 17,000$ a year. If so, then good for them, but agian this seems highly unlikely.
This post was edited on 1/20/14 at 11:23 am
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:20 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I think that says more about JHC than our program.
Ed Zachary. I'm not one to throw stones about the kid being trash or a thug, etc., but I will lean toward the "his behavior is a negative influence" end of the continuum. I would imagine that "OMG! Team Cancer! Off with is head!" is at the far end of that. Given the fact that the walk-ons (with or without scholarships) put us well over the 84 that we know get schollys, and less than half a dozen appear to get busted for smoking weed/ DUI/ etc, we run a pretty tight ship. It's just that some folks can't be bothered to follow the rules, apparently.
Funny thing is, if he'd handle his shite off the field, keep his nose clean and bust his arse for the next couple of years, the big winner would be JHC himself.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 11:29 am to VoxDawg
quote:
It's just that some folks can't be bothered to follow the rules, apparently.
These players must think these rules are stupid, which they are. Its smoking pot, he didnt hurt anyone or rob anyone, just smoked pot and prob with his other teammates. Just b/c its a rule doens't make it right, and this is what the players are seeing. What JHC does in his own time should have no impact on what he does on the field, i know its not the way things work, but for an ethical standpoint, it is valid.
Would bama, lsu, auburn even give a frick?? JHC would not be getting suspended for this. Hell at LSU, they might put a plaque up for him.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 12:25 pm to dawgsjw
quote:
highly doubt every scholarship player is gettin 17,000$ a year. If so, then good for them, but agian this seems highly unlikely.
Well,all the kids living off campus do recieve the stipend and I'd say the majority of kids we recruit/sign would be elgible for Pell Grants
and hardship funds...not unlikely at all
This post was edited on 1/20/14 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 1/20/14 at 12:44 pm to dawgsjw
quote:
Also if these players can get 17,000$ in cash each year, you think the whole football team is getting that??
Not all of that is coming from the University.
As was said... the living stipend comes from the University.
That's long been a loophole for the players to have spending cash. South Carolina had players being charged about $100/month to stay at the Whitney Hotel all the while receiving their stipend. That was an NCAA violation (they have to be charged market rent). But this is no secret for how the players can get monthly cash.
If you keep fighting the argument that the players aren't well taken care of, you are arguing because you are angry about something else.
The players have it made.
Would they like more?
Absolutely. And they'd spend it on more expensive cars and car insurance. More expensive cable packages. More expensive phones and gadgets/gaming systems.
These are 18 year olds. Not financial planners.
If you give them more, they would be more broke.
This post was edited on 1/20/14 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 1/20/14 at 1:01 pm to meansonny
Its not about wanting more, its just the principle. We are ran by a capitalistic system, where MONEY is exchanged for services. Yes other bartering means is out there, but these players have earned their money. They are adults and should be given their money to spend how they see fit instead of the university deciding for them. If a program is bringing in a profit, why cant the students or players receive any? Instead they get a 'full ride'.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 1:03 pm to dawgsjw
Again, though - if they manage their shite while they're in school, not only will they get their education that they've earned, but they'll get those millions that the school enabled them to earn by giving their athletic abilities a platform.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 1:06 pm to dawgsjw
Careful what you wish for....
If these are paid athletes, then they get to pay taxes on their scholarships (compensation for their work). They get to pay taxes on their housing stipend. They get to pay taxes on the unlimited meals. Just like the coaches do for their compensation.
Can the NCAA do more? Yes. There has been pressure for "Cost of Attendance" scholarships which would cover more than currently is.
The pushback are the 100 universities whose athletic programs are in the red right now and are taking money from the universities to stay afloat.
If these are paid athletes, then they get to pay taxes on their scholarships (compensation for their work). They get to pay taxes on their housing stipend. They get to pay taxes on the unlimited meals. Just like the coaches do for their compensation.
Can the NCAA do more? Yes. There has been pressure for "Cost of Attendance" scholarships which would cover more than currently is.
The pushback are the 100 universities whose athletic programs are in the red right now and are taking money from the universities to stay afloat.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 2:29 pm to dawgsjw
quote:
These players must think these rules are stupid
Speculation.
quote:
which they are.
Personal opinion.
quote:
Just b/c its a rule doens't make it right
Wrong. Because it's a rule, you follow it anyway. If you want to play football for Georgia, and continue to get your scholarship.
quote:
What JHC does in his own time should have no impact on what he does on the field
Unless what THC does on his own time clearly and expressly violates the rules and code of conduct he willingly agreed to as a part of being a member of the football team at the University of Georgia.
quote:
i know its not the way things work, but for an ethical standpoint, it is valid.
On the contrary. From an ethical standpoint it's irrelevant what the prohibited actions are. It could be eating at McDonald's, watching South Park or drinking Gatorade. If it's against the rules and he chooses to willfully violate those rules, then he accepts the consequences. You forget that he entered into an agreement with the team's leadership (Coaches, administration, boosters, etc) that he would refrain from certain activities in order to benefit from the school's resources, training facilities, personnel, room & board and most importantly - the opportunity at a free education.
While you feel that what he does on his own time doesn't impact what he does on the field, it actually does seeing as how it's keeping him off the field for 4 games. He's already missed one, so there's 5 games in two seasons that he'll be on the bench. 300 minutes of game time, just to get high. That's a healthy chunk of his football career. How nice would it have been for the opposite to have been true and the NCAA grants players extra games of eligibility for good behavior? Wouldn't it be sweet if they told AM that he could come back for 5 games because he was an upstanding student athlete and leader on and off the field?
At best, assuming a player keeps their nose clean, stays healthy and is skilled enough to start every game for their team, you're looking at a possible 48 games of regular season play. Winning your division and going to the SECCG & ensuing bowl games takes you up to 56. As a draft eligible junior, assuming your skills are in demand enough to be taken highly enough in the process, you're looking at 36-42 games. Those 5 suspension games make up an even higher percentage of his total collegiate career, spent in the penalty box. Those are games that he can't impress NFL scouts, that he can't show his position coach and coordinator that he's the right person for the starting job at his position. Most importantly, those are games where he's expressly shown his teammates that he can't be trusted.
Posted on 1/20/14 at 2:39 pm to VoxDawg
This post was edited on 1/20/14 at 2:41 pm
Posted on 1/20/14 at 4:40 pm to crispyUGA
quote:
If you pay football players, you have to pay all student-athletes of all sports...equally. Just like you cannot dining halls, academic centers, or any other perk just for a specific sport, you can't just pay football players. Part of that is Title IX, which is federal law, as well.
Apparently you misunderstood me...or more likely, I was not very clear. I don't advocate paying players. It would be a HUGE mistake. And yes...if you paid one group you would have to pay everybody. It would bankrupt MOST schools. They would probably drop all sports except maybe Football, Basketball and baseball. Then even it out fro Title IX with Basketball, softball and tennis or something for women. It just isn't feasible. My opinion.
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