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re: Auburn Police Shoot Mentally Ill Woman
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:15 am to Sneaky__Sally
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:15 am to Sneaky__Sally
quote:
And the teachers aren't expected to take on people wielding deadly weapons - well maybe in some public schools.
Sadly some districts in some states, especially in large urban areas where you have a lot of high poverty students they've gotten rid of the old zero tolerance policies. So you're seeing a lot more kids with minimal punishment for bringing a weapon to school. And some of these kids are without a doubt mentally unstable. Discipline is hands down one of the largest issues in the U.S. public school system right now.
As far as the OP, it's a sad situation. The LEO never knows what they're walking into and with the public becoming more aggressive towards police, it's created a shoot first/ask forgiveness later mentality. And someone in the mental state to harm themselves and others is highly unpredictable, even if you know they have a mental disorder. Due to the piss poor mental health system in the U.S., it wouldn't surprise me if she went off her meds or couldn't afford them/treatment. Just a sad, sad situation.
ETA: Having worked in a psych facility, where you get tons of training on safe crisis management and the like, I've seen some HS age girls take 5-6 people to restrain when they've "snapped". They can be dangerous as frick.
This post was edited on 4/12/16 at 11:18 am
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Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:19 am to ChargerDog91
quote:
we shouldn't expect a cop not to shoot someone in this situation
What was the exact situation?
How many times did they demand for her to comply verbally? Did she charge with the knife? How fast did she charge? Did they have service weapons drawn? Were they trained to draw their weapon at the sight of a knife or were they trained differently.
Were they trained to handle crazy people with knives differently than normal folks (anyone shaking a knife at a guy with a gun is crazy IMO).
Lots of questions.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:34 am to Guava Jelly
quote:
It just doesn't seem like all avenues were exhausted.
Were you there? No. So you have absolutely no idea what other "avenues" were explored.
Again, this woman charged at officers with a deadly weapon. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
This post was edited on 4/12/16 at 11:35 am
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:37 am to Spinthemusic
quote:
My point was that it was reported that "multiple" officers were on the scene at the time of the shooting & I would hope between multiple officers that they were equipped to diffuse the situation without taking her life. Most every cop I know around here is equipped with tazer pepper spray nightstick/baton vest etc.
If that had been your point, you wouldn't have mentioned the vests. You brought them up for one reason - you thought they'd protect the officers from a knife. You're not alone, most people make the same mistake.
You're also still bringing up batons and spray. I wouldn't trust either of them one bit against a knife wielding opponent. Simply too much chance of failure and they're so short ranged you don't have time to go to plan B.
Tasers are another story. As I said above, it would be a great choice but not all departments carry them and even more don't issue them to all officers. I don't know what the situation is with Auburn PD.
quote:
I mean according to some on here if my daughter ever flips out mentally acting suicidal and happens to come at me with a knife while she isn't in her right mind I should just immediately take my Glock 22 & just drop her on the spot even if my brothers are standing next to me ready to help.
Well, you'd be within your rights to do so but the course of action you took would be your decision. I doubt you'd shoot your daughter. I certainly wouldn't shoot mine but I bet you wouldn't treat a stranger on the highway the same way you treat your own flesh and blood. What you're doing here is taking the side of clearly distraught family members with no facts other than those limited ones presented in the story. Remember how Michael Brown had his hands up and was shot in the back? As with that fictional version of events, time will tell what really happened here and if the officers had other realistic options. With multiple officers on scene, there's probably audio and/or video of the whole thing.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:47 am to AggieDub14
Police need to be trained to exhaust non-lethal options prior to pulling their firearm. They're usually doing just as they've been trained - and that's pull their service weapon - so I'm a little more sympathetic to them as individuals than a lot of people. But a woman with a knife is not life threatening to the officer. People are senselessly being killed due to lack of training. With all that said, this country needs a mental health care overhaul in a big, big way.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:49 am to AUbagman
quote:
But a woman with a knife is not life threatening to the officer.
Really.
Wow, just wow.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:51 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
Really.
Wow, just wow.
I suppose I should have specified - when the officer uses non-lethal means to subdue the suspect.
If the officer was far enough away to use his firearm, he was far enough away to use countless others means to get control of the situation.
But I suppose you could argue the chance of this skill set:
This post was edited on 4/12/16 at 11:55 am
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:53 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
But a woman with a knife is not life threatening to the officer.
Really.
Wow, just wow.
I'm here to join you in disbelief...
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:54 am to AUbagman
quote:
But a woman with a knife is not life threatening to the officer.
If she is charging at the officer, she absolutely is. Even with training,
LEOs are still human. They're not invincible nor are they Robocop with just a little training. We have developed this mentality that officers should have super human reflexes, flawless execution in the face of danger, etc.
ETA: The article only gives one side of the story. There's nothing that says they didn't use other measures to deescalate the situation either.
This post was edited on 4/12/16 at 11:57 am
Posted on 4/12/16 at 11:57 am to terd ferguson
Really guys? Taser guns work damned well to incapacitate someone. That's my point. Could you not reach for the taser before the firearm? They both throw a projectile that incapacitates the individual, one allows them to live.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 12:11 pm to AUbagman
quote:
If the officer was far enough away to use his firearm, he was far enough away to use countless others means to get control of the situation.
How far away was he when he fired? Do you know? I don't.
The general rule is that if someone armed with a knife is within 21' then they're too close. At that distance, you don't even have time to draw and fire if your pistol is holstered.
LINK
Now, do you know the maximum range of a taser? Didn't think so. It varies by model and cartridge but the maximum available is 35'. The ones most commonly used have ranges of 15' and 21'.
21 feet. Hmmm, have I heard that number somewhere before?
When you fire a taser, you're launching two darts with wire spooling out behind them. As you get further out, tasers get pretty inaccurate. At max range, it is easy to miss a stationary target.
Real life ain't like the movies. Without detailed information, it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge if the officers had other valid options but the notion that a charging person armed with a knife isn't an imminent threat to life is laughably absurd.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 12:19 pm to AUbagman
quote:
a woman with a knife is not life threatening to the officer
Wow.
Would you stand there and let someone rush at you with a knife?
Posted on 4/12/16 at 12:25 pm to JustGetItRight
I keep rationalizing it in my mind... and this is my own opinion. I ask myself:
If someone is coming at you with a knife and you have a choice between a pistol or a taser to defend yourself which one would you choose?
I have yet to justify to myself how taser would be the preferred choice between the two.
If someone is coming at you with a knife and you have a choice between a pistol or a taser to defend yourself which one would you choose?
I have yet to justify to myself how taser would be the preferred choice between the two.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 12:54 pm to terd ferguson
quote:
I keep rationalizing it in my mind... and this is my own opinion. I ask myself:
If someone is coming at you with a knife and you have a choice between a pistol or a taser to defend yourself which one would you choose?
I have yet to justify to myself how taser would be the preferred choice between the two.
You're also not a trained police officer. Even your experience on a nuclear security detail would change how you would react.
As I mentioned before, an officer of the law has a greater responsibility to protect life than does the average citizen. Because of that responsibility, their training, and because of the very real power they wield, they should be held to a higher standard of behavior than the average citizen.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:01 pm to terd ferguson
quote:
I keep rationalizing it in my mind... and this is my own opinion. I ask myself:
If someone is coming at you with a knife and you have a choice between a pistol or a taser to defend yourself which one would you choose?
I have yet to justify to myself how taser would be the preferred choice between the two.
IMO, it comes down to a handful of factors.
First, one-on-one there's no choice at all. Shoot them.
In this situation where multiple officers were present, it simply depends on the officer's faith in the taser's ability to stop the attacker and his faith in his fellow officers should the taser not do the job.
Here's the rub. He could have chosen the taser but it WAS a potentially life threatening situation that justified the use of deadly force. There's not a wrong answer.
What posters like AUBagman are really saying is that they wish she hadn't gotten killed. I bet the officer wishes the same thing. Very few people get up in the morning hoping to go to work and kill someone. I suspect there's not a single soul that doesn't wish she hadn't gotten killed but that wish doesn't mean that the actions of the officer were unjustified.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:07 pm to JustGetItRight
quote:
What posters like AUBagman are really saying is that they wish she hadn't gotten killed. I bet the officer wishes the same thing. Very few people get up in the morning hoping to go to work and kill someone. I suspect there's not a single soul that doesn't wish she hadn't gotten killed but that wish doesn't mean that the actions of the officer were unjustified.
I don't think anyone is saying his actions weren't justified. I don't know a lot about being a cop. But from what I know about the law I know there is legal precedent for use of deadly force on someone with a knife who is "charging" an officer.
But my question is whether or not the shooting was preventable. If it was, there needs to be a change in departmental procedure or police training.
Just as these officers have the right to protect themselves, people with mental issues have a right to not live in fear of being killed during an episode.
This post was edited on 4/12/16 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:29 pm to Guava Jelly
Clicking within the OP's article to the original AL.com article it says this:
If the weapon was unspecified, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the police have been trained to assume an unspecified weapon is a potential gun. IMO that could definitely change how they address her use of force against them.
quote:
At around 3:40 p.m. on Sunday, Auburn police say a suicidal motorist, later identified as Melissa Boarts, exited her vehicle on Red Creed Road in Macon County armed with an unspecified weapon and "charged the officers in a threatening manner."
If the weapon was unspecified, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the police have been trained to assume an unspecified weapon is a potential gun. IMO that could definitely change how they address her use of force against them.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:41 pm to Guava Jelly
quote:
But my question is whether or not the shooting was preventable. If it was, there needs to be a change in departmental procedure or police training.
That is a reasonable question. Nobody will know the answer until ALL the facts are out. Right now we only know the point of view of her family speaking mostly through a well know local ambulance chaser. Those words shouldn't be treated as gospel.
quote:
people with mental issues have a right to not live in fear of being killed during an episode.
Only to a point. When someone's actions, regardless of motivation or mental state, place the lives of others in danger then well, Bye Felicia. That may sound cold but you don't get a free pass to endanger others simply because you're unbalanced.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:42 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
If the weapon was unspecified, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the police have been trained to assume an unspecified weapon is a potential gun. IMO that could definitely change how they address her use of force against them.
The parents also said they told the cops she had a pocket knife. The 911 call and dispatch records would be the most reliable sources here. Again, the officer won't be prosecuted if she indeed charged him with a weapon of any sort.
But that doesn't mean that this sort of thing isn't preventable.
Posted on 4/12/16 at 1:52 pm to Guava Jelly
Just because a relative calling says they know she has a knife, doesn't mean that she only had a knife when police are assessing that.
But like I said, the details are vague on whether they used other deescalation techniques before she charged. And something like only
10-12% of law enforcement agencies use crisis interventions, so a LEO can only do what he's been trained to do so to speak.
Los Angeles has started partnering mental health clinicians with officers in cases like this to avoid the arrest/shooting and instead get them treatment. That said, you have a lot of push back against a mental health stigma and getting help so I don't know how receptive parts outside of LA would be to that kind of partnership.
But like I said, the details are vague on whether they used other deescalation techniques before she charged. And something like only
10-12% of law enforcement agencies use crisis interventions, so a LEO can only do what he's been trained to do so to speak.
Los Angeles has started partnering mental health clinicians with officers in cases like this to avoid the arrest/shooting and instead get them treatment. That said, you have a lot of push back against a mental health stigma and getting help so I don't know how receptive parts outside of LA would be to that kind of partnership.
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